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Old 12-09-2018, 10:45 AM   #1
Almenac
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

Hello!

I'm planning a possible fantasy hexcrawl campaign, possible homebrew West Marches or The Dark of the Hot Springs Island. I'm looking for a deadly high-fantasy feel where the adventurers start out as quite weak, but advance in power in an organic manner. I'm trying to take a step away from modern D&D where the power curve is too steep (characters rise in power too fast), where it's too easy to solve problems with straight combat and where characters rarely have to fear death.

In your honest opinion, do you think GURPS would be a good system for this? What supplements would you use and what magic system? I have the Basic Set, pdfs 1, 2 and 15 from Dungeon Fantasy line and Mook's How to be a GURPS GM. My initial thought is using the 125 point templates in DF 15: Henchmen. Do you think this is a good idea? Can DF games accommodate nonviolent solutions since hexcrawls are often VERY deadly and I'd like to reward players for trying to talking to the orcs instead of kicking in the door to their lair.

None of us have never run GURPS and only one of the players has played it over a decade ago. What are the most common pitfalls you could think of? What do I need to know as a new GURPS GM? Standard recommendation seems to be "Start small in a realistic setting, don't include magic", but this isn't really possible in my situation.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:03 PM   #2
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

I would definitely think that GURPS can do that, and do it well. Though your 'advance in power' may be on the slow side unless you give relatively high character point awards. The normal GURPS advancement advice means that you need a lot of sessions to pile up the points for advancements more expensive than a skill bump. It would take a minimum of 25 sessions (and an expectation of about 50) to get from the henchman start to the 250-point level of 'standard' DF characters. Which on most play schedules would take a minimum of six months (at a session per week) and could run to years (at a session per month).

GURPS DF talks about non-violent possibilities. See page 10 of DF 2. Your call whether that's enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almenac View Post
Standard recommendation seems to be "Start small in a realistic setting, don't include magic", but this isn't really possible in my situation.
That really hardly seems like good advice unless you've got players who think that whatever "small in a realistic setting" works out to sounds appealing. It might minimize rules, but...
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:32 PM   #3
VariousRen
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

Hey, so I have good news for you: it absolutely is! I know this because I'm currently running a West Marches game (called, surprisingly, The West Marches). Our game actually has 6 DM's (originally 3 but we got a little too busy with RL stuff to run enough games for everyone) who run sections of the world and are also players (only to adventures not in their own zones). In our game everyone begins as Henchmen from DF 15 and works their way up from there. At 200, 300, etc. points on your highest point character your allowed to make a second character, in case you want to adventure with a lower point group, want to try a different character type, or just want a non-125 point replacement if your main guy dies.

We keep an obsidian portal page up with information for everyone in the game, you're welcome to browse through it and steal anything you want: https://thewestmarches-2.obsidianpor...ikis/main-page

One of the adventuring requirements is that someone from the adventure writes an after action report, to help keep track of who's done what. You can read through those if you want to get a feel for what the game looks like from the players side. Some are quite short (a single paragraph), others are much longer, depending on how much the writer felt like doing.

I think West Marches style gurps is a good place to start. The default magic system is no more complicated than the melee combat system is because it is based on skills. Wizards may take a little bit of time to adjust to the differences between gurps magic and D&D magic: gurps magic is at it's strongest when it buffs other people or adds supernatural abilities, direct damage tends to be weak and time consuming. DF also tends to make you good at all the skills on your sheet (and bad at the ones not on your sheet), so you can quickly see what your character is capable of and what other people are not.

Gurps in general and DF in particular is a lot better (in my opinion) at providing actual mechanical support to non-violent situations. In DF Henchmen the Agent and Sage are two templates devoted entirely to non-violent pursuits. They're key goal in a fight will be staying out of harms way, but when solving puzzles or negotiating they bring a host of useful abilities and skills that murder hoboes tend not to have. This is a bit of a contrast to D&D where all characters tend to be equally good at non-violent stuff because there is little mechanical support for it.

One pitfall I want to highlight is to figure out your traveling rules early and make sure everyone understands them. DF16: Wilderness Adventures has rules for travel speeds, finding campsites, and so on that might be useful. Make sure people know what equipment they'll need to bring (it mostly matters for encumbrance. Whoever is schlepping the party tents is going to have a harder time dodging a sudden attack) and make sure you have a rough idea of how long you want people to be traveling between points of interest. Spell casters have a lot of spells that make travel easier, and druids excel at making parties travel faster through the wilds with fewer penalties.

We've been running our WM game for over a year now, so if you have any questions let me know!
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:49 PM   #4
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almenac View Post

None of us have never run GURPS and only one of the players has played it over a decade ago. What are the most common pitfalls you could think of? What do I need to know as a new GURPS GM? Standard recommendation seems to be "Start small in a realistic setting, don't include magic", but this isn't really possible in my situation.
The only reason people suggest that is to minimize the rules till everyone is used to the system. You might try a practice combat or two first to get players used to it.
I would recommend the free Combat Cards and print out a few sets.
The most common problem is decision paralysis since GURPS offers so many options. Players often forget what they can do in combat and the cards help remind them.
Since it sounds like you have a familiar group another recommendation is if something comes up in the game it is ok to just go with your judgement, write a quick note to remind yourself later, and look it up after the game.
Just be clear to the players.

Finally my blog has some tips and is geared towards new players and GMs,.
https://refplace.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_28.html

And Mooks website also has great stuff (author of How to be a GURPS GM) and you can find it and others from links on my site as well. Also he has it in his signature if you see him post here.
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:56 PM   #5
Dalin
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

GURPS is a great system for hexcrawl sandboxes! I've run hexcrawl style games with GURPS, both 3e and 4e. Because it is skill-based, there are always a variety of non-combat options to resolve situations. As GM, you can encourage this by making sure your templates have some robust non-combat advantages and skills. You can build challenges that emphasize certain skill sets, too. As PCs gain points, they can tune their characters to fit particular niches.

You can even provide advantages and skills as rewards for elements in the game. So, for example, if they find a way to befriend the swamp witch instead of killing her, she may teach someone an exotic skill or magical ability. In my experience, players love this sort of thing.

DF is a great place to begin because it simplifies things and strips off most of the other genre material (high tech, sci fi, etc.) There are enough non-combat skills to get started, but you might broaden things a bit as you get used to the system.

I recommend the standard magic system for beginners.

Finally, I heartily echo VariousRen's recommendation of DF16: Wilderness Adventures. It's a great supplement for almost any GURPS game, and it would be very useful for a hexcrawl.
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:29 PM   #6
khorboth
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

GURPS should be able to do that really well. It sounds like you have a good setup. I always recommend that new players and GMs get a copy of GURPS skill categories pdf. It's a free supplement and it doesn't add any new rules. What it does is it takes the existing, somewhat ponderous skill list and cuts it into categories. It makes the system easier to navigate.

If you have unlimited budget, magic would be a good investment and so would fantasy, but neither is required.

magic fleshes out the magic system presented in basic with LOTS more spells and a few rules clarifications.

fantasy is mostly a fluff book, but has lots of good world-building and campaign-guiding advice. It also discusses which optional rules are good for which fantasy tropes.
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:01 AM   #7
Almenac
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
We keep an obsidian portal page up with information for everyone in the game, you're welcome to browse through it and steal anything you want: https://thewestmarches-2.obsidianpor...ikis/main-page
Thanks a lot, this was very inspiring!

I was a bit confused about the progression in DF, though. I understand that Power Ups has unique extra abilities, but are DF characters limited to those? Can characters for example buy advantages, new skills and stat raises with their accumulated points regardless of their starting template?
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Old 12-10-2018, 05:43 AM   #8
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almenac View Post
are DF characters limited to those? Can characters for example buy advantages, new skills and stat raises with their accumulated points regardless of their starting template?
The usual answer in GURPS is "yes, you can buy anything". Templates are just guides and checklists to building characters, not limits.

Even DF introduces the templates this way in DF1 -- but then immediately follows that with a note that notes that in order to emulate the class restrictions and rigorous niche protection of the genre inspirations (D&D, the roguelikes, Diablo, etc), GMs might choose to make "templates mandatory – contrary to what every other GURPS supplement says".

So, the strict DF game will mean that you can only buy stuff that's on the template for your class (and even after play starts, for Advantages that can normally can't be acquired in play). That still sort of leaves the question of stat increases a bit open, since those aren't really covered.

If you like that niche protection, then the strict view would be that you only raise stats with optional increases listed in the template. (Frex, ST / HT / Per for the Barbarian, or DX / IQ / FP for the Bard.) That will be sure to keep the distinctiveness and flavor of the different classes.

The super-strict version is that you can buy only those increases listed as options, but nothing beyond that even in those stats. So, the Barbarian can take +1 to +3 ST as the character earns xp, but could never raise his ST by 4 more than the starting value. The stat normalizers might like this interpretation, as it makes sure the numbers can't get too unreasonable no matter how many hundreds of xp the characters earn.

Or you can just say "sure, raise whatever stats you like", even while keeping the templates mostly mandatory. It's not really going to happen a whole lot, so it's unlikely that the characters get distorted beyond recognition.

(And at least for me personally, I don't think that's a bad thing if that's where the character growth in the narrative takes them. Kind of cheesy if people are do it just because it was cheaper to buy up DX or IQ than raise each of their skills, though, so the "barbarian" winds up with super-high IQ defaults in all the sciences and arts.)
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Old 12-10-2018, 06:56 AM   #9
Rasputin
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

Yes, GURPS works well for hexcrawls. I’ve been running one in GURPS for the last five years.
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Old 12-11-2018, 04:35 PM   #10
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: Is GURPS a good system for hexcrawls (HSI, West Marches, etc.)

I honestly can't think of better mechanics for what you want than GURPS. It's power curve is very low to the ground. It's combat isn't completely unforgiving but it is harsh and abrupt and better off circumvented by characters. GURPS has the strength and detail of social skills and Advantages/Disadvantages that gives player agency to dependably pursue non-combat efforts. GURPS characters do not act on alignment or Class presumption. They are shaped by individual defining traits that make them more or less inclined to pursue a given quest or action.

As the GM read everything, really know the books before you put them on the table. Minimally read the Players Guide and Campaigns books until you can find anything you want. The Index in GURPS is good but not nearly enough for you to locate rules on the fly. You have to know what you're doing. You can get by without knowing every spell in the Magic sourcebook but, maneuvers, how injuries work, fear checks, close and ranged combat. You have to be on all of that.

Also know what is and isn't for your campaign. The core books are rules for every kind of character. Define your non-human templates, decide what advantages and disadvantages make sense for your game and what sort of unusual background would be involved in the borderline abilities. Decide on what skills will be applicable to your campaign and feel free to make a list of them if it makes it easier to communicate. Likewise cut whatever magic out seems to shortcut the challenges of your game. Your world, your build.

Make a list of everybody-buys skills for your players. Most games won't permit incompetence in PCs. GURPS encourages characters that cannot swim or suck at lying. If there are skills that are sure to be rolled almost every game session let the players know they're coming up so they don't feel blindsided when they find out there's a roll for Observing a location without staring at it obviously or searching for things that people hide.

Don't go crazy with flaws. Players can have up to 40pts in disadvantages, it's ok for them to have less. If anything cut that in half for new players and encourage more quirks. You're better off giving your players more points than drowning them in disadvantages they'll never be able to manage well.

Emphasize armor. A lot of games romanticize bare-chested fighting. GURPS isn't one of those games. Not wearing armor is the fastest way to make a new character. Minimally have some coverage of the torso. Emphasize magic healing to the extent you'll allow it in the game. GURPS wounds don't heal with a brisk nap, it could take months of bedrest to recover from a rough fight.

Get your players' feet with with low risks scenes so they can get a handle on the mechanics before you throw them into the deep end. A good bar fight teaches them what they need to know about Initiative, maneuvers, attacks and wounds. A street encounter with a difficult noble gives them a good sense of their depth when it comes to reaction and social rolls. Make sure everyone understands how their advantages and disadvantages work before you turn them loose on the Hexcrawl.

Don't be afraid to throw a rule out. GURPS has a lot of mechanical realism which is awesome! but can sometimes throw a wrench at your story. If a rule in GURPS is a burden, or just too complex, DO try it out to make sure you understand it's impact, but don't feel like you have to be married to it.
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