10-08-2022, 01:40 AM | #71 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
It's necessitated by taking a Non-Sapient Disadvantage, which in my view incorporates Bestial but goes further. But it implies a discount to the cost of IQ in exactly the same way that No Fine Manipulators implies a discount to DX: No Fine Manipulators removes a significant capability that humans take for granted, which in turn puts a lot of skill usages out of the character's reach; and because much of the value of DX comes from the many skills it enables, taking No Fine Manipulators also results in a -40% Limitation on DX.
The idea here is that “Non-Sapient” is very much the mental equivalent of “No Fine Manipulators”. |
10-08-2022, 06:04 PM | #72 |
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Wouldn't that also apply to other static-cost disadvantages like Innumerate?
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10-08-2022, 06:10 PM | #73 |
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: UK
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Incidentally, Non-Sapient doesn't necessarily include Bestial. In Basic Set, domestic animals don't have Bestial. Bestial seems to be not so much "doesn't understand things that an animal wouldn't understand" as "lacks Cultural Familiarity (hoomins)". So although you might think that Bestial was the disadvantage for "can't do things an animal can't do", apparently by RAW it's not.
[Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bestial has some discussion about this. Although the first posting of that thread includes "You have no skills that depend on the ideas or tools of civilisation, and no defaults in them either. Intimidation and Area Knowledge are about your limit in IQ-based skills", which doesn't match Basic Set, which just says "You cannot learn skills that, in the GM’s opinion, rely on “civilized” notions of art or social interaction, and you have no default with such skills". Not sure whether there's a reason for that - maybe another book says something more along the lines of not being able to use skills that involve tools? It does mention that in GURPS Zombies zombies with Bestial can't use equipment.
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10-09-2022, 12:00 AM | #74 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Quote:
You could argue Smithing for Tools survived clear into early TL 6 (~1930s)
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10-09-2022, 06:31 AM | #75 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Quote:
Basic didn't include Bestial in the domestic animal meta-trait, but it probably should have. I suspect they were trying to make domestic and wild similar value so you could just swap them out. It also doesn't see to mirror Cultural Familiarity very well. First off, animals aren't expected to observe cultural normals (dress code, behavior). Second, the costs and penalties don't align (B23). Lack of Cultural Familiarity gives you a reaction penalty to others. Bestial means you can't comprehend the reasons to behave. Third, humans are just as likely to make social faux pas dealing with other humans of a different culture using strange manners or different morality. |
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10-09-2022, 10:03 AM | #76 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Quote:
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10-09-2022, 11:51 AM | #77 |
Join Date: Jun 2017
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
More like "food watched over by hoomans isn't safe to snatch", am I right?
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10-09-2022, 09:39 PM | #78 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Beastial doesn't prevent you from learning. A domesticated animal doesn't understand why it has to do the job, but it can be trained to do it especially if there's a tangible reward. Cats aren't really trained to use a box so much as they instinctively use sand like areas. Dogs are "housebroken" but mostly it involves treats and a mix of discipline. I suspect none of the above are capable of appreciating the "why" such behavior is enforced which is exactly the point of Beastial.
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10-09-2022, 10:06 PM | #79 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Technically, yes. The difference, though, is that the range of skills that Innumerate prevents you from learning is trivial in comparison.
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10-09-2022, 10:45 PM | #80 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Quote:
IIRC, using a lathe to shape or etch soft metals is TL3. That's the forerunner of metal lathing. By late TL3, gears and screws were in occasional use. By TL4, dedicated machinists certainly existed, although they were mostly an outgrowth of the jewelry trade. Depending on how you define the skill, lower TL versions of machinist might include specialized Smithing operations to "make the tools that make the tools" such as nail-making, needle-making, and anvil-founding. If you really object to having TL0-4 versions of Machinist, make the skill a specialization of Jewelry (for fine hand-made gears, etc.), Metallurgy (for anything made from cast metal), or Smithing. TL5 was actually the heyday of Smithing, since improved metallurgy and technology allowed improved feedstocks as well as for a far greater, cheaper variety of Smithing tools. As late as the 1920s, Smiths were still mending tools, custom-forging parts, and doing gorgeous custom decorative blacksmith work. Smithing declined in the 1920s and 1930s as automobiles replaced horses and wagons and was mostly killed off by WW2, which saw many anvils and other smiths' tools sold or taken as scrap for the war effort, as well as the destruction of a great deal of decorative iron work. Post-WW2 fashions, improved machining of custom parts, and cheap mass produced items formerly made by smiths pretty much killed the trade except for a few artisanal metalworkers. |
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