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Old 10-11-2022, 12:42 AM   #91
Inky
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: UK
Default Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Neither of your definitions fit how I view Beastial. From Basic, it's anyone lacking a concept of morality (right/wrong), propriety (manners), or property (ownership in the abstract). Animals don't worry about sniffing each other, defecating in public, or making others feel bad even if they are domesticated. Animals regard toys and treats as fair game for whomever can claim it. You'll find these behaviors in domestic as well as wild animals.

Basic didn't include Bestial in the domestic animal meta-trait, but it probably should have. I suspect they were trying to make domestic and wild similar value so you could just swap them out.

It also doesn't see to mirror Cultural Familiarity very well. First off, animals aren't expected to observe cultural normals (dress code, behavior). Second, the costs and penalties don't align (B23). Lack of Cultural Familiarity gives you a reaction penalty to others. Bestial means you can't comprehend the reasons to behave. Third, humans are just as likely to make social faux pas dealing with other humans of a different culture using strange manners or different morality.
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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
A domesticated animal can learn things like when the harness is on I'm on the job, I'm supposed to defecate in the box, food on the table isn't for me, etc.
That was the kind of thing I meant, yes. If domestic animals not having Bestial is intentional, then it looks like those kind of animal-level "human manners" are what Bestial refers to.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Beastial doesn't prevent you from learning. A domesticated animal doesn't understand why it has to do the job, but it can be trained to do it especially if there's a tangible reward. Cats aren't really trained to use a box so much as they instinctively use sand like areas. Dogs are "housebroken" but mostly it involves treats and a mix of discipline. I suspect none of the above are capable of appreciating the "why" such behavior is enforced which is exactly the point of Beastial.
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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I wasn't trying to convey that impression. In fact I only referenced three types of relatively abstract constructs: morality, manners, and abstract ownership. I also didn't address any reasons why animals don't generally comprehend these things. It could be that we just lack the way to convey the meaning to them. For that matter, I'd consider Beastial just as appropriate for a wild human that's never had any exposure to those concepts.

My point was that Beastial is just as appropriate for domestic as wild animals. I haven't heard of a significant difference in a domestic vs wild animal's ability to distinguish between morality, manners, or property ownership.
That's a pretty difficult thing to study - it's hard to tell whether an animal you don't share a language with has any such concepts. (Though, as oneofmanynameless pointed out, that might mean that they wouldn't have such concepts, as their mothers don't (as far as we know) have enough language to teach them anything so abstract).

And, similarly, if that is what Bestial means it might be difficult to use in game terms, because it's hard to get from that to what difference having those abstract concepts, as opposed to having just learnt from experience that people make a fuss if you do certain things, would make in terms of what the animal actually does.
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Old 10-11-2022, 10:04 AM   #92
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ

It almost seems like Bestial is basically just a "odius personal habit (behaves like a wild animal)" combined with an appropriate belief system of "I have no idea what 'civilized' even means." All rolled together into one trait?
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Old 10-11-2022, 10:47 AM   #93
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ

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Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
It almost seems like Bestial is basically just a "odius personal habit (behaves like a wild animal)" combined with an appropriate belief system of "I have no idea what 'civilized' even means." All rolled together into one trait?
That's close to how I treat it. I'd call it "behaves like an animal because it doesn't grasp why to behave differently." It's not necessarily an OPH because others tend to make allowances (dogs will be dogs) for accepted animal behavior. There's no additional negative reason modifier a human would have for an animal acting according to their nature. Those modifiers would come from phobias or intolerances for that type of animal.

I still haven't seen a reason to separate domestic from wild animals. Wild animals can learn which leaves usually not attacking humans. That doesn't seem to be worth 15 points.

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Originally Posted by Inky View Post
That was the kind of thing I meant, yes. If domestic animals not having Bestial is intentional, then it looks like those kind of animal-level "human manners" are what Bestial refers to.
Wild animal learn behaviors at least as complex and in many cases very similar to the ones you're referring to. I was watching the nature show Cumberbach narrated yesterday and many of those wild animals got more training than the pets I'm living with.

Last edited by naloth; 10-11-2022 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 10-12-2022, 08:27 AM   #94
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Default Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I still haven't seen a reason to separate domestic from wild animals. Wild animals can learn which leaves usually not attacking humans. That doesn't seem to be worth 15 points.
An easier approach is to say that if a wild animal learns "civilized" manners it has bought off Bestial.
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Old 10-12-2022, 04:07 PM   #95
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
An easier approach is to say that if a wild animal learns "civilized" manners it has bought off Bestial.
... which is what distinction? Farm animals are supposedly "civilized" but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't take much for a sow or bull to want to hurt you. Besides "manners" is small and very subjective component of Beastial. As mentioned previously mentioned, humans from different areas often consider various behaviors suitably uncivilized just based on social norms.
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