Disconnecting Sapience from IQ

[Inky]

Originally Posted by naloth

Neither of your definitions fit how I view Beastial. From Basic, it's anyone lacking a concept of morality (right/wrong), propriety (manners), or property (ownership in the abstract). Animals don't worry about sniffing each other, defecating in public, or making others feel bad even if they are domesticated. Animals regard toys and treats as fair game for whomever can claim it. You'll find these behaviors in domestic as well as wild animals.

Basic didn't include Bestial in the domestic animal meta-trait, but it probably should have. I suspect they were trying to make domestic and wild similar value so you could just swap them out.

It also doesn't see to mirror Cultural Familiarity very well. First off, animals aren't expected to observe cultural normals (dress code, behavior). Second, the costs and penalties don't align (B23). Lack of Cultural Familiarity gives you a reaction penalty to others. Bestial means you can't comprehend the reasons to behave. Third, humans are just as likely to make social faux pas dealing with other humans of a different culture using strange manners or different morality.

Originally Posted by RyanW

A domesticated animal can learn things like when the harness is on I'm on the job, I'm supposed to defecate in the box, food on the table isn't for me, etc.

That was the kind of thing I meant, yes. If domestic animals not having Bestial is intentional, then it looks like those kind of animal-level "human manners" are what Bestial refers to.

Originally Posted by naloth

Beastial doesn't prevent you from learning. A domesticated animal doesn't understand why it has to do the job, but it can be trained to do it especially if there's a tangible reward. Cats aren't really trained to use a box so much as they instinctively use sand like areas. Dogs are "housebroken" but mostly it involves treats and a mix of discipline. I suspect none of the above are capable of appreciating the "why" such behavior is enforced which is exactly the point of Beastial.

Originally Posted by naloth

I wasn't trying to convey that impression. In fact I only referenced three types of relatively abstract constructs: morality, manners, and abstract ownership. I also didn't address any reasons why animals don't generally comprehend these things. It could be that we just lack the way to convey the meaning to them. For that matter, I'd consider Beastial just as appropriate for a wild human that's never had any exposure to those concepts.

My point was that Beastial is just as appropriate for domestic as wild animals. I haven't heard of a significant difference in a domestic vs wild animal's ability to distinguish between morality, manners, or property ownership.

That's a pretty difficult thing to study - it's hard to tell whether an animal you don't share a language with has any such concepts. (Though, as oneofmanynameless pointed out, that might mean that they wouldn't have such concepts, as their mothers don't (as far as we know) have enough language to teach them anything so abstract).

And, similarly, if that is what Bestial means it might be difficult to use in game terms, because it's hard to get from that to what difference having those abstract concepts, as opposed to having just learnt from experience that people make a fuss if you do certain things, would make in terms of what the animal actually does.