Infinite Worlds: alternatives to Sleepout

[Cowd]

I totally love IW and I'm looking to run it soon, starting out with a party of Infinite Patrol recruits and going through basic training to bring the players into GURPS and IW. But I have a few problems with IW. One of these is the "sleepout" that IP cadets are treated to. This is what it says on page 10:

The unofficial line between “basic” and “advanced” training is Sleepout: an unannounced midnight alert that picks up four to seven cadets at a time (depending on class size) and drops them a couple of hundred miles away from the Academy to find their way back through sabertooth country. With only what they were wearing and carrying five minutes after waking up. In December. In an Ice Age.

1) This is totally barbaric. It's something you might expect from Waffen SS training, not from the "good guys".
2) It's realistically completely impossible to survive.
3) It would be damn boring to play.

Does anyone have any suggestions for alternative I-Patrol "exams" that answer the requirements above?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Cowd

With only what they were wearing and carrying five minutes after waking up.

If they're remotely skilled troops, this will be full kit. If they need more than 5 minutes to shrug into clothes and sling their pack, then somebody, somewhere made a mess of their training. The challenge of Sleepout isn't that you have no gear (see above) or teammates (of which you have 3-6). The challenge is that you didn't get a briefing, didn't have time to psych yourself up, and are operating without a supply line. It's about being adaptable and resourceful, not about enduring the elements naked and fighting armies alone with nothing but your teeth and a knife on a stick.

[Ed the Coastie]

Originally Posted by Cowd

The unofficial line between “basic” and “advanced” training is Sleepout: an unannounced midnight alert that picks up four to seven cadets at a time (depending on class size) and drops them a couple of hundred miles away from the Academy to find their way back through sabertooth country. With only what they were wearing and carrying five minutes after waking up. In December. In an Ice Age.

1) This is totally barbaric. It's something you might expect from Waffen SS training, not from the "good guys".
2) It's realistically completely impossible to survive.
3) It would be damn boring to play.

Not unrealistic at all. One of the courses I went through in the military had a "final exam" evasion exercise that collected my team in the middle of the night from our barracks in Cape May (New Jersey) and dumped us into the middle of the Pine Barrens with little more than what we had been wearing while asleep (mostly t-shirts and either sweatpants). We had 72 hours to evade those searching for us (they started at sunrise), make it back to base, and prepare for a full-dress uniform inspection...all without being seen prior to the inspection itself.

As Kromm pointed out, it's not as like the squad doing the Sleepout mission doesn't have any gear with them. Just no briefing. (We had the briefing, but minimal equipment -- knives, 1 MRE each, 30 feet of 550 cord, and whatever we could quickly cram into our pockets -- although to be honest, we weren't dodging Sabertooths during an Ice Age in December.)

[Cowd]

Aah. I've been misreading it all this time as "with only what they were wearing and carrying when waking up". Thanks for tolerating my stupidity.

Still, wouldn't it be against human rights to just leave them there to die, if they couldn't make it? And wouldn't your superiors wilfully killing off your teammates in a training mission, create a lot of morale problems?

I guess for "my" version of IW, I'll just have Patrol monitor their every step and bail them out and flunk them in disgrace if they can't make it.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Cowd

Still, wouldn't it be against human rights to just leave them there to die, if they couldn't make it?

Probably would be. But there's no mention that the patrol would do that, either. Certainly, there's a chance that somebody could get seriously hurt or even die. That's an inherent risk in training and exams for dangerous tasks. However, I doubt that the Patrol would just toss somebody out in the wilderness and forget about them.

[Qoltar]

Originally Posted by Cowd

Still, wouldn't it be against human rights to just leave them there to die, if they couldn't make it? And wouldn't your superiors wilfully killing off your teammates in a training mission, create a lot of morale problems?

Neither one of those makes sense to me.

Human rights?
They have the "RIGHT" to the best training possible . This test that we are talking about is to see if that training succeeded.

No one is "willfilly killing off" anyone.

Similiar exercises were done in a BOY SCOUT Troop that I was part of at a Summer Camp. I wasn't chosen - but a few of the older kids did a 4 day thing similiar to the "sleepout" exercise. They had to capture and kill local game for their meals while cut off from the rest of the camp for 3 days.

Paladin, Draknoir2, Ed the Coastie, Lochemet, Stilleto Rebel, and others on the forums would probably have no problem with such an exercise when they were active duty military.


- Ed Charlton

[DryaUnda]

Originally Posted by Qoltar

No one is "willfilly killing off" anyone.

Let's rephrase the question. Wouldn't it be wasteful to let them die (assuming that's what actually happens)? Even those who don't make the grade have to be good for something.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Cowd

wouldn't it be against human rights to just leave them there to die, if they couldn't make it?

Well, I doubt they're really being left to die. First off, it's not a suicide mission; they're expected to survive for the most part. Second, they're probably under observation, or possibly provided with "bailout" radios: if there's an emergency, you can contact HQ and request pickup, but doing so will result in your failure (and probably washout, unless the circumstances were truly dire and the trainers sympathetic).

And wouldn't your superiors wilfully killing off your teammates in a training mission, create a lot of morale problems?

Yes, but that's not exactly what's happening.

I guess for "my" version of IW, I'll just have Patrol monitor their every step and bail them out and flunk them in disgrace if they can't make it.

Sounds fine to me.

[Qoltar]

Originally Posted by Cowd

The unofficial line between “basic” and “advanced” training is Sleepout: an unannounced midnight alert that picks up four to seven cadets at a time (depending on class size) and drops them a couple of hundred miles away from the Academy to find their way back through sabertooth country. With only what they were wearing and carrying five minutes after waking up. In December. In an Ice Age.

Cowd , I think you missed the point and some details entirely.

These are NOT "couch potato" gamers being dropped in the wilderness. They're higly trained individuals.

Even with that waking up in the mddle of the night business - most soldiers I've ever met usually kept a knife or sidearm near their bunk all the time. You can slap either one of those items on your belt in less than 5 minutes.

Hell, I had to get ready for work /NO SHOWER/ from a cold-panic start a couple of mornings ago. Thats from naked in bed to fully dressed with my cane and shoulder laptop bag - Time ? 7 to maybe 8 minutes.

Now If I had proper training from somebody like good 'ol Paladin's avatar - Bet my time could be less than 5 minutes ...full dressed with BOTH a sidearm and a knife on me somewhere.

ALSO, it said they had to make their way through sabre-tooth country.
NOT by themselves in groups of 4 to 7 cadets. (hey wait!! Thats a 47!! oh never mind)

Did you not think that they could KILL these sabre-tooth tigers on their way back to the Academy? (or other aniumals on their way)
We're talking about mankind here - humans can be some of the best damn predators if they use their brains and a little teamwork.

Oh yeah just looked - a few paragraphs before the one you cited it says that they work on TEAMWORK and other skills.

Anyway ...sorry if this seemed like a "rant" - its just no one is really letting anyone "die" . They're just going through a training exercisae or "final" exam here.
This is the physical training version of a "pop quiz".


- Ed Charlton

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Cowd

The unofficial line between “basic” and “advanced” training is Sleepout: an unannounced midnight alert that picks up four to seven cadets at a time (depending on class size) and drops them a couple of hundred miles away from the Academy to find their way back through sabertooth country. With only what they were wearing and carrying five minutes after waking up. In December. In an Ice Age.

This is actually pretty similar to what most of the more advanced countries already do with their elite forces training. Look at US Navy SEALS or British SAS for reference.

Heck, as a Canadian I wouldn't even think it's impossible for me to make my way a couple hundred miles on foot in the winter.... if I were prepared ahead of time for the trip, which is kind of the point everyone else brings out of it.