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Old 01-02-2019, 11:12 AM   #1
ruskerdax
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Default GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

Hello! I was wondering if I could get something cleared up. It seems like there is a possibility, depending on the effective skill of the shotgun user, that using the rules for close-range shots from a shotgun might actually result in lower damage. Is this intentional?

To explain: Prima fires three blasts from his auto shotgun at Secunda from a distance of 3 yards. If we were to use normal RoF rules instead of the close range rules, Prima's effective Guns (Shotgun) Skill is 25 -- 20 normally, +5 for firing a "total" of 27 (3x9) shots. (Normally there wouldn't even be a bonus to attack for rapid-firing 3 shots, which is how shotguns are supposed to be treated at such a range.)

Prima rolls a 7, beating 25 with a success margin of 18. This translates into 18 separate rolls of 1d+1 pi. If Secunda has no damage resistance, this means a potential of 18d+18 damage. This is much higher than the 12d+12 damage that would otherwise be used if all three shots were a success, and it is also requires a much more difficult roll to dodge, requiring a practically impossible 18 point margin of success to dodge all of those pellets, as opposed to a two point margin of success to otherwise dodge them using the close shotgun rules.

This seems counter-intuitive, as generally shotguns are more effective at close range, not less. Am I missing something? If not, would it be unreasonable to just use the shotgun as normal, discarding the close range rules? The book seems to imply that this rule somehow makes shotguns even more lethal, but unless I'm getting something totally wrong it doesn't look that way to me.
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:34 AM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruskerdax View Post
Am I missing something?
Possibly the "P" class rules and realistic Skill levels. Skill-20 with a shotgun is probably the best in the world and that might distort matters.

Mostly it's the P class thing. All those individual hits from dispersed buckshot are 1D+1 P which is no modifier. Note that even if you use the same roll for all pellets you apply them as wounds individually.

When using the close range rules the undispersed groups of buckshot act more like a slug. 3 slugs in fact each at 4D+4 P++. So those do (18 pts x 2 for P++
or 36). If you hit with all 3 groups that 114 pts of total damage which is not merely dead for someone who started at 10HP but chunky salsa dead.

By contrast the 18 hits of 1D+1 P add up to only 81 pts of damage which is still automatically dead but exotic things like Resurection Spells or Chrysalis Machines are still a possibility.
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:14 PM   #3
Plane
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

What are the page numbers for the 2 different rules being compared here?
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:38 PM   #4
ruskerdax
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
When using the close range rules the undispersed groups of buckshot act more like a slug. 3 slugs in fact each at 4D+4 P++. So those do (18 pts x 2 for P++ or 36)
While the rules do not mention changing the damage type in the example given, I think I like this solution better than treating it like a 27 pellet burst. It still seems objectively less effective, however, when considering the +5 bonus for firing so many shots, combined with the potential for an attack which is nearly impossible to dodge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane
What are the page numbers for the 2 different rules being compared here?
The rules I'm looking at are for 'Shotguns and Multiple Projectiles' (B409) and 'Rapid Fire' (B373). At yards further than 1/10th a shotgun's close range, you are normally supposed to treat the shotgun as if you were making a Rapid Fire attack, with 9 shots fired for each shell expended.

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Old 01-02-2019, 12:50 PM   #5
Imion
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
(...)
When using the close range rules the undispersed groups of buckshot act more like a slug. 3 slugs in fact each at 4D+4 P++. So those do (18 pts x 2 for P++
or 36). If you hit with all 3 groups that 114 pts of total damage which is not merely dead for someone who started at 10HP but chunky salsa dead.
(...)
The Wounding Modifier does not change, it would still be pi. To get a Wounding Modifier of pi+ or pi++, you would need to actually fire slugs from the shotgun.


And yes, a skill level of 20 lies comfortably in the realm of the highly cinematic. I wouldn't wonder why some things tend to behave strange when viewed through this lens.
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:05 PM   #6
ruskerdax
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

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And yes, a skill level of 20 lies comfortably in the realm of the highly cinematic. I wouldn't wonder why some things tend to behave strange when viewed through this lens.
Looking at the rules, a total effective skill of 25, or close to that, does not strike me as outrageously "cinematic." For example, we have a character with a very good, but reasonably modest DX 12. Lots of training gives them an effective Guns (Shotguns) of +4, bringing it to 16. Using the aim action brings the effective skill to 19. +1 for making a determined all-out-attack brings us to 20. Another +5 for rapid fire rules brings it to 25.
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:30 PM   #7
Imion
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

Just did some re-reading and found that there is indeed an optional rule in Tactical Shooting, that says you could use pi++ in point-black situations for more realism.

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Originally Posted by ruskerdax View Post
Looking at the rules, a total effective skill of 25, or close to that, does not strike me as outrageously "cinematic." For example, we have a character with a very good, but reasonably modest DX 12. Lots of training gives them an effective Guns (Shotguns) of +4, bringing it to 16. Using the aim action brings the effective skill to 19. +1 for making a determined all-out-attack brings us to 20. Another +5 for rapid fire rules brings it to 25.
As you said yourself: Skill != Effective Skill.

To be honest, if I were the GM in the situation you described, that is a character aiming a shotgun at a stationary and apparently entirely motionless, or at least unaware, target 2 yards away from him, I'd not bother rolling damage at all ;).
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:37 PM   #8
ruskerdax
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

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Just did some re-reading and found that there is indeed an optional rule in Tactical Shooting, that says you could use pi++ in point-black situations for more realism.
This is good to know! I've been meaning to check that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imion
To be honest, if I were the GM in the situation you described, that is a character aiming a shotgun at a stationary target 2 yards away from him, I'd not bother rolling damage at all ;).
Haha, good point. Well, perhaps not if the target has no damage resistance. Things become a bit different when, say, the target has Injury Tolerance (Unliving) and a Ballistic Suit, which may be the case.

This whole thing came up as I'm making an unofficial campaign setting / supplement which takes heavy inspiration from Doom and Quake, tentatively named "Shotguns and Slipgates." The combination of shotguns, close quarters combat, high tech armors, and other potentially damage-mitigating factors feature prominently in the source inspiration, so figuring out for sure how these things should be handled would be helpful to me.
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Old 01-02-2019, 02:03 PM   #9
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

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Originally Posted by Imion View Post
To be honest, if I were the GM in the situation you described, that is a character aiming a shotgun at a stationary and apparently entirely motionless, or at least unaware, target 2 yards away from him, I'd not bother rolling damage at all ;).
That doesn't even really make sense even against a living, unprotected human target in a mundane setting, unless their survival isn't a thing that matters to you. ~36 injury is serious, but by no means a certain kill.
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Old 01-02-2019, 02:26 PM   #10
SenorPez
 
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Default Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

There's a couple of small errors but this actually seems correct to me in terms of mechanics and real-world shotgun performance. Remember that, like in the real-world, a gun against an unarmored target is almost always crippling-to-lethal. You really don't see the effects of lethality until you can start to mitigate some of that lethality.

I ran my own example just to make sure there were no quirks in your numbers. For simplicity's sake I didn't do anything to be expected in a "sophisticated" combat, such as Aim.

Auto Shotgun
Damage: 1d+1 pi
Range: 50/125
RoF: 3x9
Rcl: 1

Primo
Base Skill: 16

Short Range Attack Example
Range: 2
RoF Bonus: +0
Effective Skill: 16
Attack Roll: 10
Margin: 6
Hits: 3 (1 + 6 extra hits, maximum of number of shots fired)
Damage: 3x 4d+4 pi

Not-Short Range Attack Example
Range: 5
RoF Bonus: +5
Range Penalty: -2
Effective Skill: 19
Attack Roll: 10
Margin: 9
Hits 10 (1 + 9 extra hits)
Damage: 10x 1d+1 pi

Segundo The Helpless Bystander
Dodge: 9

Short Range Defense Example
Required Roll for 0 Damage: 7
(Note that something like Dodge and Drop can change this and that for the sake of simplicity I'm not using it. Also note that if Primo's close enough, it might be better to Parry.)
After failing to dodge, up to 3 locations will take an average of 18 damage which is catastrophic to anything hit.

Not-Short Range Attack Example
Required Roll for 0 Damage: 4
(Note that there is a bit of curve-break here: A roll of 9 gets you hit by 9 pellets, 8 by 8, 7 by 7, 6 by 6, 5 by 5, and 4 by none. Segundo can't possibly take a hit from 1-4 pellets.)
After failing to dodge, up to 10 locations will take an average of 4 damage.

Moral of the story: Unarmored targets in a gunfight die.

Segundo the Armored Bystander
Dodge: 9
Torso DR: 8 (Ballistic Vest)
Foot DR: 8 (Reinforced Boots)
Skull DR: 12 (Ballistic Helmet)
Eye, Face DR: 10 (Ballistic Helmet Visor)

Unarmored locations account for around 68% of random hit locations, with Groin and Left Arm being the most vulnerable. (The fact that Right limbs are less likely to randomly be hit than Left limbs remains one of my pet peeves, and why I have a house-ruled random hit table.) This is significant for two reasons:

1. Spoiler alert, but any armor makes the location effectively impervious to this damage.
2. Most of the exposed locations have HP caps.

Short Range Defense Example
No difference in required Dodge. We assume Segundo isn't encumbered.
After failing to dodge, up to 3 locations will take an average of 18 damage. This doesn't penetrate any of the armored locations and is catastrophic to any of the unarmored locations. But remember, those unarmored locations have HP maximums, so there's an increased possibility of being maimed but not being killed.

Not-Short Range Attack Example
After failing to dodge, up to 10 locations will take an average of 4 damage. Again, anything armored is completely safe.

Moral of the story: The target is still probably going to take some damage, but it's less likely to be fatal. The close range blast, however, obliterates anything it hits, while the not-close range blast might just pepper a few exposed body parts. But the close range blast is easier to dodge. Keep your armored bits hidden in a gunfight; a shotgun is great at finding those unarmored bits and stinging you.

--

Real world story: While hunting my dog grabbed a live pheasant and brought it to me. About 5 yards away the bird got free and immediately flew upward. Instinct took over and I shot it with a 12 gauge shell. There was not much left. It was a much harder shot (I basically had to be perfectly accurate), but left little to prepare for dinner.
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