Building a Politics Heavy, Class Struggle Sensitive Medieval World [World Building]

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

Disclaimer: This is all pretty rough inside my head and a lot of these names are just placeholders till everything is worked out underneath the hood for consistency's sake.

I'm revisiting an old idea I had about a world where an extra dimensional Orc Invasion that occured millenia ago has confined humanity to a single "City" that occupies a peninsula cut off from the rest of the world via a mountain range and an enchanted Dwarven Wall that repels Outsiders.

I'm wanting to explore and unwrap this world with our community members who have experience world building and with related academic fields.

This Last City is separated into four regions. The Outer City that exists from the Outer wall inwards to the wall that marks the border to the Inner City. This is the largest region by far and is where the vast majority of the agriculture takes place. The Outer City is ruled by the Nobility who've descended from those hand picked by the First Emperor to reside over those lands. The structure of the nobility is fairly standard English ranks. Barons answer to viscounts, viscounts, answer to Counts proper, and the Counts, answer to the Dukes. I'm uncertain how many of them there are becouse of my uncertain of the actual size of this peninsula, I'm imagining there are a couple strong rivers that run from the mountains through the city to the sea so a Duke's territory may be divided up as one per coast, and one per each of the three(?) rivers that run the length of the peninsula.

I think the above while a bit vague is pretty reasonable and standard, the Inner City is where we get complicated becouse I'm trying to nit together different settings and time periods. namly victorian London as the Inner City is only a fraction of the size of the Outer, and is currently undergoing a degree of industrialization becouse a century ago the ruling Duke of the Inner City was implicated along with a good chunk of the nobility underneath him in a plot to overthrow his Imperial Majesty, and his holdings and authority were rewarded to the loyal subjects who uncovered this plot, the Pyromancers Guild.

The Guild Runs the Inner City meritocratically, but harshly. It's Pyromancers spend their days meditating in Copper spheres at the bases of pools of water, their force of will and unbroken focus wills heat into existence and causes the sphere to glow hot, boiling the water to drive overhead steam turbines. The Pyromancers are paid handsomely for their services and treated as the critical resource they are, but as the chief bottleneck in factory production they work long hours, fastly approaching 16 hour shifts, 6 days a week as the supply of pyromancers dwindles do to the crown conscripting many for an upcoming crusade. Other workers treatment varies from factory to factory, but exploitation is common, regulations nonexistent, and the workers whisper of revolution.

The Inner City itself is vast and spralling hive of millions of people and do to the visionary works of the GrandMasters who rule over the city it's undergoing rapid development and industrialization. The streets are beginning to be lit at night, houses are being built with plumbing and running water, and Suspension bridges are starting to span rivers. While living within the Inner City can be harsh, the lack of a nobility has forced social mobility to become avaliable. Not everyone can be a pyromancer, but it isn't a strictly inherited trait either, and can pop up randomly in any old peasant. This along with the Guilds need for support and administrational personal who can't be pyromancers themselves as that would be a wast of their gifts has made it so status in the Inner City is dependent on Rank within the Guild and to a lesser extent just plain wealth. A prominent merchant who is on good terms with the guild is free to be status 2, or maybe even 3 if he becomes REALLY successful.


Next we have the Forbidden City, a location that the peasants, freemen, or those disgraced members of the lower nobility who would make up the PCs would know little about. It's a location even smaller then that of the Inner City, only the nobility, Church, and higher representatives of the Pyromancers guild are allowed entrance. It's a place of luxury made possible by ancient magitech from the First Empire that Spanned the Globe and was struck down by the green skinned invaders.

Now I should mention the colonies real quick, I don't have them as developed, but the idea is that the Orcs are too dense to float, and come from a world that has much less water, and fewer non ocean bodies of it. Because of this The last City is protected on it's ocean facing sides from Orc invasion, in the centuries since the dimensional gate collapsed the remaining Orcs have launched attacks by boat, but the Last City has maintained a strong naval presence to combat these ragtag raiders.

The Colonies are locations isolated from the mainland, but accessible by sea. These Islands and secluded villages in the Fjords, mountainous shores, and rivers dot a Nordic continent to east. Nobils are granted Charters to go out and build these settlements, relieving the strain put on the city by overpopulation. These nobilis who oversee colonies are entitled to a residence in the Forbidden City where they conduct political business with other Nobles just like those from the City itself.

Finally there is the Imperial Palace Where the Emperor resides, it's not open to the public, but is somewhat like Vatican in that the Emperor is a religious figure in the Last City with his Ancestor the First Emperor is thought of by the common people in much the same way Moses is thought of by the Jews. He delivered refugees from the War onto salvation in this peninsula.

Thoughts, comments, criticisms?

If I may suggest, urban nobility often used different titles then rural ones.

Also you might consider Italian titles over English ones. It fits the city-state theme.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

If I may suggest, urban nobility often used different titles then rural ones.

Also you might consider Italian titles over English ones. It fits the city-state theme.

Seconded, only I'd use the more familiar titles in the place where I plan to keep the adventurers most of the time. Maybe the German titles would work well in the countryside with the English titles in the city proper.

[Minuteman37]

Originally Posted by Michele

This. If you want politics and class struggle, you should expand on this. At a very minimum you cold have the local versions of reformism, communism, anarchism and luddism; plus you could have some other ideology.
What about rebellious pyromancers? Are all pyromancers satisfied with belonging to the Guild and work those hours?

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Furthermore, said work involving sitting motionless inside a copper ball all day.

No they are not, they have comfortable wealth like doctors and Lawyers, but low ranking Pyros are effectively slaves to the guildmasters forced to work these extraordinarily long hours, the only way to have any say in the organization is to gain rank and social connections, but these working conditions make that difficult. When you're doing you're doing your job well no one notices you're there.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

If I may suggest, urban nobility often used different titles then rural ones.

Also you might consider Italian titles over English ones. It fits the city-state theme.

I'm not knowledgeable about these things, if you'd like to make a suggestion please do, you're ideas sound interesting.

I originally went English partly becouse thier system is pretty well known by English speakers and becouse as far as climate and geography are concerned their locations are pretty similar, there exists a nordic landmass to the east full of Vikings, and everyone to the south is bent on killing them all.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

No they are not, they have comfortable wealth like doctors and Lawyers, but low ranking Pyros are effectively slaves to the guildmasters forced to work these extraordinarily long hours, the only way to have any say in the organization is to gain rank and social connections, but these working conditions make that difficult. When you're doing you're doing your job well no one notices you're there.


I'm not knowledgeable about these things, if you'd like to make a suggestion please do, you're ideas sound interesting.

I originally went English partly becouse thier system is pretty well known by English speakers and becouse as far as climate and geography are concerned their locations are pretty similar, there exists a nordic landmass to the east full of Vikings, and everyone to the south is bent on killing them all.

Italian titles are available in the wikipedia. "Patrician" is a common for urban noble. Some of the other titles are offices rather then noble titles (that is a noble might be more likely to hold it but he will give it up at the end of his term like anyone else).

If the idea is to get a Vikingish sound you do not want English sounding titles. The ones you gave were introduced after the Viking age. You could try something from the Rurik empire, like Posednik and Tysyatsky. Those were titles from Novgorad and would be appropriate for the feel of an isolated Gormenghast like city in the wilderness.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Italian titles are available in the wikipedia. "Patrician" is a common for urban noble. Some of the other titles are offices rather then noble titles (that is a noble might be more likely to hold it but he will give it up at the end of his term like anyone else).

A Patrizio was more than an urban noble. He was a member of a noble family in a city, yes, but the city was independent from any empire or kingdom. Usually an oligarchy-republic, in which members of that elite, the patrician families, could sooner or later hold those offices you mention. The term of course comes from the patrician families of Rome, those of senatorial rank.

In the Republic of Venice, heads of patrician families were considered to be on the same standing as foreign crown princes, because they all had the possibility of ending up as the Doge. I suspect foreign nobles probably would consider this a bit presumptuous.

Gran Maestro was indeed a title sometimes used for the (temporary or for-life) ruler of such a city. Another title, either for this same position or for some other magistrate under the Gran Maestro, was Console (from the Roman Consul, of course). The city-state normally had a bewildering number of collegial bodies with interlocking powers, called Consiglio (pl. Consigli) or Collegio (pl. Collegi). All the heads of the patrician families would be part of a Senato (which usually had law-making powers). In Florence, the guilds had power, too, under the guildmasters (Priori, singular Priore). Also, acting to balance the patrician power, there might be the Capitano del Popolo, an equivalent of the Roman Tribunus Plebis. Venice had the Inquisitori di Stato, a three-member tribunal which could proceed in secret against the enemies of the state. There was a number of other minor magistrates, including the Podestà (who led the police).

[smurf]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

Disclaimer: This is all pretty rough inside my head and a lot of these names are just placeholders till everything is worked out underneath the hood for consistency's sake.

... The structure of the nobility is fairly standard English ranks. Barons answer to viscounts, viscounts, answer to Counts proper, and the Counts, answer to the Dukes. I'm uncertain how many of them there are becouse of my uncertain of the actual size of this peninsula, I'm imagining there are a couple strong rivers that run from the mountains through the city to the sea so a Duke's territory may be divided up as one per coast, and one per each of the three(?) rivers that run the length of the peninsula.

...The Guild Runs the Inner City meritocratically, but harshly. It's Pyromancers spend their days meditating in Copper spheres at the bases of pools of water, their force of will and unbroken focus wills heat into existence and causes the sphere to glow hot, boiling the water to drive overhead steam turbines. The Pyromancers are paid handsomely for their services and treated as the critical resource they are, but as the chief bottleneck in factory production they work long hours, fastly approaching 16 hour shifts, 6 days a week as the supply of pyromancers dwindles do to the crown conscripting many for an upcoming crusade. Other workers treatment varies from factory to factory, but exploitation is common, regulations nonexistent, and the workers whisper of revolution.

...The Inner City itself is vast and spralling hive of millions of people...

...The Colonies are locations isolated from the mainland, but accessible by sea...

Thoughts, comments, criticisms?

Regretably the whole fantasy, feudal, medieval landscape has been influenced by crass story telling in various formats.

Firstly Ranks:

• King, Queen.
• Prince, Princess.
• Duke, Duchess.
• Marquess, Marchioness.
• Earl, Countess.
• Viscount, Viscountess.
• Baron, Baroness.

Royal_and_noble_ranks - my favourite two are Tyrant and Despot.

A quick note the English system is not necessarily the best. Firstly there are two noble ranks at work. Germanic in pre 1066AD and the French infusion in post 1066AD. Note the Earls are not included.

I would argue that Feudal society is based on consumption. If they can consume all within their Kingdom they will go to war and expand. There are no Colonies but just an expanding Kingdom.

The dualism of control. The King rules and the Religious institutions provide the ideological propaganda. With no mass means of communication Religion provides the best means of ideology for the peasantry. The Kingdom needs its Religion and in this period the Religion needs its King. One ruler on Earth is similar to one ruler in Heaven - ie justified by God.

Problems with in the Kingdom historically included: Waring Knights, a real pain for stability, the quick solution was to send them away on a Crusade or two, three, four, etc. Despite this England's wealth was delepleted by King Richard and the blame was passed on the much maligned King John. This lead to the great Charter (Magna Carter) 1215 or the revolt of the Barons. Having demonstrated the King's 'divine right' may not be so divine there were a succession of revolts.

1381 including two significant challenges. The Lollards who demanded scripture to be read in English (as challenge to ideological control) and the Peasant Revolt against the other King Richard over taxation of the populace.

From the 15th Century onwards there are significant changes that will change society away from Feudalism.

However, the form of discrimination was not based on skin colour. It was based on religion. That is, if your fantasy races can recite the Lord's Prayer in front of a priest or vicar and be baptised then their chances of integration will be made much more easily.

Cities just didn't have Millions in them. The infrastructure could not handle it. Of course this can be hand waved by 'magical sewers' and magical water wells.

Guilds controlled apprenticies and masters. How many masters of a given trade could set up shops. They were not trade Unions.

The term Labourers would be better than workers. It wasn't until 1823 that the OED recorded the word worker as in a class of workers.

There is a pre 1215 feudalism, a post 1215 and the death of Feudal power from 16th Century onwards. So, quite a few years play with. To recap:

• No racial discrimination (relatively modern concept from 1640s onwards)
• There were challenges to the Dynasties (Plantagenets, Tudors, Stuarts etc)
• There were challenges from below (not greatly unified)
• There were challenges from the burghers (the seed of Feudalism's end)
• Now and then Kingdoms knock spots off of each other (not like modern armies - no mechanised warfare)
• Desease is a problem, you know a few plagues and a lack of science.
• Religious persecution (a few Inquisitions later...)

Remember Kingdoms could change size quite quickly through marriages.

Of course if you wish to play 'High Fantasy' discard what ever you do not need.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

The Outer City is ruled by the Nobility who've descended from those hand picked by the First Emperor to reside over those lands. The structure of the nobility is fairly standard English ranks. Barons answer to viscounts, viscounts, answer to Counts proper, and the Counts, answer to the Dukes. I'm uncertain how many of them there are becouse of my uncertain of the actual size of this peninsula, I'm imagining there are a couple strong rivers that run from the mountains through the city to the sea so a Duke's territory may be divided up as one per coast, and one per each of the three(?) rivers that run the length of the peninsula.

If your head of state is an Emperor, he is qualified to have kings, archdukes and princes as tenants in chief, let alone dukes. Note, however, that a feudal state was never the neat pyramid it is sometimes depicted as with one rank reporting to the next above - you could, for example, have a knight as direct tenant of the Crown - and the mess of subinfeudation, various forms of gift and inheritance and multiple titles could mean people doing homage all over the place as one another's tenants. Of course, fantasy feudalism doesn't have to comply with real feudalism.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Furthermore, said work involving sitting motionless inside a copper ball all day.

A red hot copper ball no less...

Originally Posted by smurf

Cities just didn't have Millions in them. The infrastructure could not handle it. Of course this can be hand waved by 'magical sewers' and magical water wells.

Food production is another major bottleneck to city expansion - agriculture wasn't productive enough to support a significant urban population for most of the middle ages and poor infrastructure made moving any surplus that did exist problematic. Cities that had been much larger under the Romans suffered from population collapses so severe that people were farming and herding inside the walls - although warfare also played a significant part in this.
Not for nothing were the biggest cities almost always ports of one kind or another - this allowed them to bring in extra food by water freight, either by sea or downriver from their hinterland.

Of course, it's well established - with worked examples in the case of GURPS - that a little magic can go a long way in terms of boosting food yields, but until you can also get that food into the markets, you'll be in the same situation as early modern Britain ... for the majority of people, urban food is both more expensive and composed of "the four Ss ... Sugar, Salt, Starch or Stale".

Oh, and keep an eye on your fuel supply as well - if your pyromancers are bottlenecked for industrial use, what are your population using for heating and lighting? Historically the growth of cities sucked up the trees for miles around to provide firewood and charcoal and then had to move to coal burning as that supply was outstripped, whilst lighting was supplied first by wax and tallow, then by whale oil until petrochemicals took over ... although olive oil was king where it was easily had.

Originally Posted by smurf

I would argue that Feudal society is based on consumption. If they can consume all within their Kingdom they will go to war and expand. There are no Colonies but just an expanding Kingdom.

You could, however, have overseas vassals - settling a "colony" could easily be modelling on the process of assarting wilderness. Functionally, it's a colony - even if the arrangements are no different from any other part of the nation. After all, many medieval states are pre-national - defined by the lands ruled by a specific king rather than by a ethno-cultural group.

[Astromancer]

On the subject of food, you should look at what Bless Corps and other plant magic spells do to food production. Also, food can and has been grown within cities. New York City had farms within its city limits until early in the 20th century. I think the last working farm on Manhattan closed in the 1890's. London had dairy farms and hen coops in the metropolitan area almost until the second World War.

Given the magic present in this setting, much larger amounts of food could be grown within the Inner City.