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Old 12-12-2014, 04:23 AM   #71
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No I know, but we weren't discussing rear hex and parry, but side hex and wild swings. We might be now, and that's fine but that's why I asked have we broadened it out, and what have we broadened it out too ;-)
Yeah, I seem to be answering separate issues in different approaches without clear markers. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yep, and of course if he smart the target will turn to face you straight on when he moves, so even if you do make it a committed attack you can't move two hexes to his side facing and move into his hex to grapple in CC.
But how does he do that?

Turn U1: Wait.
Turn K1: Step into Reach 1, make any facing adjustment if necessary.
* U's Wait is triggered. U1 makes two steps into K's front-left hex then rear-left one, maybe Feints.
* interrupt complete, K1 continues, being forced to attack as a Wild Swing or with a left-hand punch/kick.
Turn U2: do whatever is appropriate. K will defend if possible.
Turn K2: K can now turn, unless grappled. If grappled, K has all sorts of problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
True but no attack either, you possibly get bonuses on the next one, but I'm not seeing how feint get you closer to grappling with side hex bonuses
The side-hex defence penalty is guaranteed, and it stacks with Feints.
(Now, if you somehow managed to start in a Rear Hex, Feint is irrelevant and the opponent can't defend at all; but you're still in a Side-Rear Hex when your turn starts, so Runaround applies.)
The Feint is there largely to prevent a knife cut to the grappling arm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
You can step with a feint of course, but then your target has an extra chance to change his facing as well.
How? You Feint on his turn after his Step is spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Its not but considering we're in thread about unarmed vs. knife, it it was suggested that staying away from, the knife hand while using defensive arm locks, it's a bit difficult to avoid it. Even if we forget the defensive arm lock, unless we're talking about SM+1 or kicking we're still taking about moving into CC.

Four levels of arm lock is indeed always good!
I'm actually considering tactics for a similar situation, but with both skills lower. I'm seriously considering whether I want to raise Arm Lock above default, because those [4] also provide more different benefits: + Parry, +1 to Power Grappling benefits (which basically means GripST), and +1 to many other techniques like Choke Hold and Breakfall.

Arm Lock is cool for its +4 to resist Breaking Free and cumulative -1 to Break Free, which is important against an armed opponent. I'm also tempted by the potential use as two levels of Deceptive Attack.
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Last edited by vicky_molokh; 12-12-2014 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 06:20 AM   #72
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Yeah, I seem to be answering separate issues in different approaches without clear markers. Sorry.
No worries

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
But how does he do that?

Turn U1: Wait.
Turn K1: Step into Reach 1, make any facing adjustment if necessary.
* U's Wait is triggered. U1 makes two steps into K's front-left hex, maybe Feints.
How is he doing two steps here, that's a CA at minimum (no feint as that's limited to 1 step), so if he's attacking with reach 1 he could get the side attack benefit here, but he won't be grappling because he needs another step to get into CC (3 hex movement in total). Again what we are trying to here model is important here.

Also when you say front left hex, do you mean left side hex?


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
* interrupt complete, K1 continues, being forced to attack as a Wild Swing or with a left-hand punch/kick.
I go with left hand punch (and leverage in some way the reduced defences that U1 will no be suffering from) However I think if your in a side hex all attacks would be wild? (the weapon side only matter for parrying to attacks from the side IIRC)

However here' where it gets into reading of the wording GURPS pg386 regarding Step says:

"You may change facing
freely before or after you
move"

If your wait is triggered by the target moving towards you one hex but before he attacks, when does the face change occur? Is you wait actually after he move forward after he does or doesn't change facing but before he attacks, or after he moves but before he changes facing and attacks?

These are getting to be pretty precise Waits considering the basic premise is all this is happening at the same time (but you and I may treat waits a bit differently as per last thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Turn U2: do whatever is appropriate. K will defend if possible.
Probably defend with a side step to get back into face to face relative position.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Turn K2: K can now turn, unless grappled. If grappled, K has all sorts of problems.
True, but now we get in to the facing while grappling issues (as per above) and he still has his knife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The side-hex defence penalty is guaranteed, and it stacks with Feints.
Wait and feint in general works well in combination because you get to immediate follow up on the feint move and result all while the target is frozen in time (depending on how you interpret the free facing change)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The Feint is there largely to prevent a knife cut to the grappling arm.
If your talking about the parry to the following grapple attack, that's not the one I'm worried about. Its the following knife attack you'll face while you're doing a two armed grapple to the arm without the knife, that concerns me. Because you'll have to grapple one handed in order to parry or rely on dodge and if you retreat you lose your grapple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
How? You Feint on his turn after his Step is spent.
If it's tied to a wait, if you not doing waits it's You go: step and feint, I go step and/or adjust facing attack, You go facing back to where it was (but you get any feint benefit)

You need to define you terms of the set up here. there's a lot of assumed waits, and the target just moving forwards and attacking etc.


Also just think about feints and unarmed combat, a feint can only happen if the supposed attack is in reach, so that means to do an unarmed feint you have to be in CC, or feinting off kicking?

EDIT: unless you saying well "I could in theory do a AoA(L) and grapple at reach 1", but that to me over balances feint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm actually considering tactics for a similar situation, but with both skills lower. I'm seriously considering whether I want to raise Arm Lock above default, because those [4] also provide more different benefits: + Parry, +1 to Power Grappling benefits (which basically means GripST), and +1 to many other techniques like Choke Hold and Breakfall.

Arm Lock is cool for its +4 to resist Breaking Free and cumulative -1 to Break Free, which is important against an armed opponent. I'm also tempted by the potential use as two levels of Deceptive Attack.
Arm lock's one of the skills which works well when getting your opponent into a situation that favours you and dis favours him.

But it does that best by removing his area of advantage.

So you facing the chap with the knife, you arm lock the knife wielding hand (and a high arm lock skill means you more likely to avoid getting parried with knife while doing so), but getting the arm lock means that you can not only do damage (through the lock) but stop him form damaging you (from the knife)


one last thing all this changes again if you use T-bones variable defence at different reaches tweak!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 06:34 AM   #73
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

The methodology Vickie is pitching with the Wait->Feint->Move is covered in Mark Langsdorf's No School Grognard blog, along with illustrations to show how it actually works.

Here is the link to that particular post.

It really keys off of the bad guy not being able to retreat against a feint.
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Old 12-12-2014, 06:45 AM   #74
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
How is he doing two steps here, that's a CA at minimum (no feint as that's limited to 1 step), so if he's attacking with reach 1 he could get the side attack benefit here, but he won't be grappling because he needs another step to get into CC (3 hex movment in total). Again what we are trying to here model is important here.

Also when you say front left hex, do you men left side hex?
I do mean in case of CA. It's either CA with two steps, no Retreat and -2 to defences, but a Wild Swing, or a regular step-and-feint, sideslip (good if you have Judo), but normal attack by the enemy.
Woops, needs to be first hex of movement into front-left, second into rear-left.

A kick or sweep is within Reach 1, so I can feint, because I could attack him with it.
Another interesting option is a Defensive Feint, if you believe you need a failed attack more than you need to be non-parried (not sure why, but there might be some tactic for that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I go with left hand punch (and leverage in some way the reduced defences that U1 will no be suffering from)
Yeah, left-hand punch is an option to look out for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
However here' where it gets into reading of the wording GURPS pg386 regarding Step says:

"You may change facing
freely before or after you
move"
That's why I'm waiting for the whole Step to complete, as in, complete with both moving and rotating. I don't think the intent of the authors was to maintain separate pools of movement points and rotation points. If you read differently, the tactics change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
If your wait is triggered by the target moving towards you one hex but before he attacks, when does the face change occur? Is you wait actually after he move forward after he does or doesn't change facing but before he attacks, or after he moves but before he changes facing and attacks?
Wait should be triggered after the facing is decided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Probably defend with a side step to get back into face to face relative position.
True. So the point is to grapple him, so that he gets denied retreats/steps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
True, but now we get in to the facing while grappling issues (as per above) and he still has his knife.
It seems quite plausible to grab his right hand while approaching him from the rear arc, and RAW doesn't seem to forbid it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Wait and feint in general works well because you get to immediate follow up on the feint move all while the target is frozen in time (depending on hwo you interpret the free facing change)
That's one of the points of sacrificing immediate attacks for waited ones, yes. They also cause repeated Parry penalties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
If your talking about the parry to the following grapple attack, that's not the one I'm worried about. Its the following knife attack you'll face while you doing a two armed grapple to the arm without the knife, that concerns me.
If you grapple him from the rear-left or rear hex, then the attack is a Wild Swing, and he can't just turn around without spending an Attack. If you grapple the knife arm, you're good too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
If it's tied to a wait, if you not doing waits it's You go: step and feint, I go step and/or adjust facing attack, You go facing back to where it was (but you get any feint benefit)

You need to define you terms of the set up here. there's a lot of assumed waits, and the target just moving forwards and attacking etc.
I'm definitely assuming that he's the aggressor with a knife, while we can afford to Wait. If he doesn't approach - good. If he approaches - good. Things change if he goes for AoA and runs up close. Or slams, or whatever. Those are different tactics, and we might want to explore them too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Also just think about feints and unarmed combat, a feint can only happen if the supposed attack is in reach, so that means to do an unarmed feint you have to be in CC, or feinting off kicking?
Feint of a kick/sweep/jump-kick/etc. No need to keep threatening with your hands - make the opponent watch your legs while you attack with arms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Arm lock's one of the skills which works well when getting your opponent into a situation that favours you and dis favours him.

But it does that best by removing his area of advantage.

So you facing the chap with the knife, you arm lock the knife wielding hand (and a high arm lock skill means you more likely to avoid getting parried with knife while doing so), but getting the arm lock means that you can not only do damage (through the lock) but stop him form damaging you (from the knife)


one last thing all this changes again if you use T-bones variable defence at different reaches tweak!
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Old 12-12-2014, 07:40 AM   #75
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I do mean in case of CA. It's either CA with two steps, no Retreat and -2 to defences, but a Wild Swing, or a regular step-and-feint, sideslip (good if you have Judo), but normal attack by the enemy.
Woops, needs to be first hex of movement into front-left, second into rear-left.

Only you won't be grappling with the CA as your not in CC (need another hex of movement)

if you stated from the front, you can get to a side hex but at reach one, or you go straight into CC (in fact you don't need CA to do that last one), but you can't go to a side hex and then step into CC and grapple with side bonuses.

(and we still need to know how Cam&MA deals with facing in CC).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
A kick or sweep is within Reach 1, so I can feint, because I could attack him with it.
The you use you kick or sweep skill in the QC though right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Yeah, left-hand punch is an option to look out for.
Out of interest which is that attack not wild (is there a page ref, it's just all attacks to all side hexes are wild AFAICT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
That's why I'm waiting for the whole Step to complete, as in, complete with both moving and rotating. I don't think the intent of the authors was to maintain separate pools of movement points and rotation points. If you read differently, the tactics change.

Wait should be triggered after the facing is decided.
While think that's reasonable by the way RAW is written, it does ping on my "wait warning radar" in that we are now saying that you are by dint of waiting able to move two steps and make two facing changes and attack in the space of time between your target finishing his movement and facing changes and attacking. your target is completely unable to adjust to this. While right by RAW in my head that's not so much waiting as bending time and space!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
True. So the point is to grapple him, so that he gets denied retreats/steps.
Only you won't be able to and get the side bonus as per above. If you wait, feint and step and then follow with a two step CA grapple you can grapple (but again what are the rules for facing in CC here) but the target will still be able to retreat in response

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
It seems quite plausible to grab his right hand while approaching him from the rear arc, and RAW doesn't seem to forbid it either.
do you mean his weapon hand after you run to his left side on the basis that he won't parry with his weapon hand? or are you now talking about running completely around to his back facing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
That's one of the points of sacrificing immediate attacks for waited ones, yes. They also cause repeated Parry penalties.
True that's why I'd retreat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
If you grapple him from the rear-left or rear hex, then the attack is a Wild Swing, and he can't just turn around without spending an Attack.
But that's assuming a successful grapple, and again what are the rules in Cam&MA for changing facing when grappled (I can find them in TG but not Cam&MA)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
If you grapple the knife arm, you're good too.
Only you talking about moving to his left and to his left side hex, and now grappling his right hand, all the while he suffers all the penalties of facing while you don't suffer any??

Again Cam&MA needs some facing rules in CC before I'd allow that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm definitely assuming that he's the aggressor with a knife, while we can afford to Wait. If he doesn't approach - good. If he approaches - good. Things change if he goes for AoA and runs up close. Or slams, or whatever. Those are different tactics, and we might want to explore them too.
There's a bit of a difference between saying he's the aggressor and assuming he just move forward while you leverage an elaborate combination of manoeuvres (lovely thought they are)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Feint of a kick/sweep/jump-kick/etc. No need to keep threatening with your hands - make the opponent watch your legs while you attack with arms!
This is where IMO feint gets a bit tricky, you base your feint of the skill you'd be using. But when you start factoring in 'special' attacks such as jump-kick just to invoke its longer then usual reach it get's a bit OTT.

Like feints involving shield bash, I'd probably rule that you'd have to have actually done one of those kind of attacks first before you could feint with them.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 07:50 AM   #76
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
The methodology Vickie is pitching with the Wait->Feint->Move is covered in Mark Langsdorf's No School Grognard blog, along with illustrations to show how it actually works.

Here is the link to that particular post.

It really keys off of the bad guy not being able to retreat against a feint.
It's a nice trick do doubt, and leverages the opponent's feet being wielded to the floor while you wait to feint/step, parry/slip and follow with an attack.

Its still bit risky for the unarmed chap because he's parrying an armed attack (depending on skill levels dodge might be better)
However the target can still retreat when your attack finally comes. (only in this case he retreat will be moving forward and away from you, rather than back and away)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 08:10 AM   #77
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Rockwolf66 View Post
Now I have read through the thread and I have seen lots of talk of various mechanics. What I haven't seen in any examples of actual knife disarms. My original Martial Art was Jujitsu and I have since studied Aikido and Judo. While not my school the following series of Videos I have found handy for showing my GMs what my character was doing. I do know that some people on this thread have touched on similar techniques but sometimes it's best to have visuals to go with mechanics.

Jujitsu knife Defense
Hey Rockwolf, martial artist to martial artist, I have to ask you a question in regards to the knife defense video you posted.

Who attacks like that? The guy who owns the school where I train and teach has been in Law Enforcement for over 25 years now. He has worked the streets, and has trained and led LOTS of officers who have done the same. He's shown us videos of knife attacks and had officers who have been attacked by knife wielding assailants come to the school and share their experiences. In no instances have the assailants ever attacked like that that guy is doing in the video above.

And it's not just that one video. I've worked with lots of practitioners...from Judo and BJJ to Karate, TKD, and even Krav Maga. Most of their Knife Defense is complete garbage and just wouldn't work/isn't practical against an assailant with a knife.

Maybe my perspective is also skewed because FMA generally teaches attacking with a knife as well as defending against one, so we learn how to cut before learning how to not to get cut. Just about all of the other stylists I've worked with never train how to use a knife, which I think is why their defenses are crap...they train to defend against the kind of attack that never comes.

Even untrained people generally don't attack like that.

And while the stab is probably the most common type of knife attack, most styles don't teach how to defend against cuts/slashes.

This video shows a lot of knife vs. knife, but you get the idea of attacking and defending from different gates/angles.

I'm not saying Eskrima/Arnis/Kali is perfect, or that skilled unarmed practitioners can easily defeat an armed assailant (that scenario is NEVER easily, no matter the skill disparity), but at least we train to deal with a bunch of different types of attacks that are likely to come rapidly (sewing-machine stab is most common) and from all kinds of different angles.
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Old 12-12-2014, 08:12 AM   #78
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Only you won't be grappling with the CA as your not in CC (need another hex of movement)
We're not grappling with our waited-CA, we're gonna grapple with the next-turn Attack (or whatever).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
if you stated from the front, you can get to a side hex but at reach one, or you go straight into CC (in fact you don't need CA to do that last one), but you can't go to a side hex and then step into CC and grapple with side bonuses.

(and we still need to know how Cam&MA deals with facing in CC).
MA says that one of the options of Shoving People Around is to change one's facing, as far as I remember.

Anyway, you can reach his Rear-Left hex with CA or with a normal Attack + Sideslip (assuming he doesn't Feint instead, which he might!). You don't try to grapple yet. You grapple with your next turn, Stepping into CC into his back arc.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
The you use you kick or sweep skill in the QC though right?
Judo can sweep/trip, yes?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Out of interest which is that attack not wild (is there a page ref, it's just all attacks to all side hexes are wild AFAICT)
Quote:
Originally Posted by B388
Wild Swings
A Wild Swing is a melee attack
against a foe to your side (left or right)
or back, or against a foe you can’t see.
It’s unlikely to hit, but sometimes it’s
better than nothing.
There are special exceptions for those with Peripheral Vision.
Which means that if you don't expect the opponent to have PV, you can even go CA and just double-step to his rear-right hex, eliminating the issue of being unable to grab the knife arm entirely (whatever is its resolution on cross-grabs).

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
While think that's reasonable by the way RAW is written, it does ping on my "wait warning radar" in that we are now saying that you are by dint of waiting able to move two steps and make two facing changes and attack in the space of time between your target finishing his movement and facing changes and attacking. your target is completely unable to adjust to this. While right by RAW in my head that's not so much waiting as bending time and space!
Well, you may want to change that, but then you'll have to do arrangements such as AABAABAA for fights between two speedsters with ATR of differing levels, and other, trickier complications; it's unlikely to be playable in a PnP RPG like GURPS.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Only you won't be able to and get the side bonus as per above. If you wait, feint and step and then follow with a two step CA grapple you can grapple (but again what are the rules for facing in CC here) but the target will still be able to retreat in response
The target must succeed in avoiding the grapple in order to successfully retreat out of CC. Otherwise, you grab, and you hold on, in CC.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
do you mean his weapon hand after you run to his left side on the basis that he won't parry with his weapon hand? or are you now talking about running completely around to his back facing?
I mean: Wait-CA double-step into his rear-left hex, then Attack into his rear into CC before he gets his turn. Optionally, you can replace Wait-CA with Wait-A and then Sideslip. But really, the -5 for Wild Swing and the max 9 is nasty against someone with skill 12. It just means you can't Defensive-Arm Lock.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
True that's why I'd retreat.
Point. Though this is a tangent - you can only meaningfully strike/grapple twice if you're in range. OTOH, if your first attack was Waited, then you can step forward on your next attack to stay within range, before he gets to Retreat and Step on his next turn.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Only you talking about moving to his left and to his left side hex, and now grappling his right hand, all the while he suffers all the penalties of facing while you don't suffer any??
If I step into his rear on the third step (the one on the non-Waited attack), what's wrong about grabbing his right hand? Facing penalties for being attacked from the back surely apply!

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
There's a bit of a difference between saying he's the aggressor and assuming he just move forward while you leverage an elaborate combination of manoeuvres (lovely thought they are)
Which brings us to looking at other possibilities:
He does not approach.
He CA's.
He AoA's.
He defensively approaches in AoD:Dodge.
He Moves And Attacks (maybe with a Slam).
He Moves in.
Thoughts on each?
AoA seems too risky against a skilled opponent: instant grab/takedown, maybe Trip or something else, at +4 for Telegraphic Attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
This is where IMO feint gets a bit tricky, you base your feint of the skill you'd be using. But when you start factoring in 'special' attacks such as jump-kick just to invoke its longer then usual reach it get's a bit OTT.

Like feints involving shield bash, I'd probably rule that you'd have to have actually done one of those kind of attacks first before you could feint with them.
Jump-kick feint does look OTT. A trip/sweep seems like an absolutely legit threat! IF the opponent doesn't take leg threats seriously, he should suffer a big penalty to defending against leg attacks, at least as severe as Boxers get, probably worse.
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Old 12-12-2014, 08:23 AM   #79
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Hey Rockwolf, martial artist to martial artist, I have to ask you a question in regards to the knife defense video you posted.

Who attacks like that? The guy who owns the school where I train and teach has been in Law Enforcement for over 25 years now. He has worked the streets, and has trained and led LOTS of officers who have done the same. He's shown us videos of knife attacks and had officers who have been attacked by knife wielding assailants come to the school and share their experiences. In no instances have the assailants ever attacked like that that guy is doing in the video above.

And it's not just that one video. I've worked with lots of practitioners...from Judo and BJJ to Karate, TKD, and even Krav Maga. Most of their Knife Defense is complete garbage and just wouldn't work/isn't practical against an assailant with a knife.

Maybe my perspective is also skewed because FMA generally teaches attacking with a knife as well as defending against one, so we learn how to cut before learning how to not to get cut. Just about all of the other stylists I've worked with never train how to use a knife, which I think is why their defenses are crap...they train to defend against the kind of attack that never comes.

Even untrained people generally don't attack like that.

And while the stab is probably the most common type of knife attack, most styles don't teach how to defend against cuts/slashes.

This video shows a lot of knife vs. knife, but you get the idea of attacking and defending from different gates/angles.

I'm not saying Eskrima/Arnis/Kali is perfect, or that skilled unarmed practitioners can easily defeat an armed assailant (that scenario is NEVER easily, no matter the skill disparity), but at least we train to deal with a bunch of different types of attacks that are likely to come rapidly (sewing-machine stab is most common) and from all kinds of different angles.
TBH that to me is the difference between MA's that include weapons training and thus techniques to fight with and defend against knives, and treat knives as continuation of the MA. And those that default to unarmed and only train to defend against knives. (and basically treat knives as an out of context problem).

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:04 AM   #80
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
We're not grappling with our waited-CA, we're gonna grapple with the next-turn Attack (or whatever).
Hang on, the post I responded to said CA,

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
MA says that one of the options of Shoving People Around is to change one's facing, as far as I remember.
Thats for the grappler, what about the grappled, it's also after the grapple has been established what about just being in CC

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Anyway, you can reach his Rear-Left hex with CA or with a normal Attack + Sideslip (assuming he doesn't Feint instead, which he might!). You don't try to grapple yet. You grapple with your next turn, Stepping into CC into his back arc.
right (but only after wait allowing you to string both together without allowing the target a chance to move) and he can still retreat against your step/grapple to CC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Judo can sweep/trip, yes?
yes but at lower skill (sweep is skill -3, trip is skill parry -1) and actually since is expressly says you can't attack with trip, I wouldn't allow you to feint with it (offensive trip is basically sweep)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
There are special exceptions for those with Peripheral Vision.
Which means that if you don't expect the opponent to have PV, you can even go CA and just double-step to his rear-right hex, eliminating the issue of being unable to grab the knife arm entirely (whatever is its resolution on cross-grabs).
Only how does that make the left hand punch not wild?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Well, you may want to change that, but then you'll have to do arrangements such as AABAABAA for fights between two speedsters with ATR of differing levels, and other, trickier complications; it's unlikely to be playable in a PnP RPG like GURPS.
To be fair I'm not sure I really care hoe two speedsters with ATR works out, it not really my level of play. I was just pointing out that given the premise of GURPS combat is concurrent action in 1 second cycle, Wait in this scenario risks being abused to an extant that breaks that basic premise.

However we just had a thread on that pretty much determined that you and I have different views on wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The target must succeed in avoiding the grapple in order to successfully retreat out of CC. Otherwise, you grab, and you hold on, in CC.
Yes (retreat increases you chance of doing that of course)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I mean: Wait-CA double-step into his rear-left hex, then Attack into his rear into CC before he gets his turn. Optionally, you can replace Wait-CA with Wait-A and then Sideslip. But really, the -5 for Wild Swing and the max 9 is nasty against someone with skill 12. It just means you can't Defensive-Arm Lock.
Only if you Wait-CA double step into his rear left hex, he'll retreat as a response to you penalised attack, ruining you position tactic, he'll then complete his attack (benefiting from the potential chance in position) and you'll be hit with CA defence penalties.

This doesn't seem to have much to do with post I was responding too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Point. Though this is a tangent - you can only meaningfully strike/grapple twice if you're in range. OTOH, if your first attack was Waited, then you can step forward on your next attack to stay within range, before he gets to Retreat and Step on his next turn.
Thing is to get two attacks in row you still have to be in CC range twice, and you can't do that and get round to flank hex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
If I step into his rear on the third step (the one on the non-Waited attack), what's wrong about grabbing his right hand? Facing penalties for being attacked from the back surely apply!
Because you can't grab any arm from his back hex, you can only grab in CC.

we seem to constantly talking past each on this one so lets restate.

You start directly facing him in his front hex. if you CA you can move two hexes around to his back left hex. (but you can't grapple as you are not in CC range). If you then make Step attack you can move into CC with your step, or move one more hex around to his rear hex (but again you can't grapple if you do that your not in CC range).

to go from the front hex to the back rear hex and then into CC you need to move a total of 4 steps. You can do this with wait CA followed by another CA, or a wait feint with step, a defence with slip and a CA. But the former gives the target a chance to retreat which will ruin it, the later is the only way to do it without giving the target a chance to retreat, but you'll be taking an attack and your unarmed.

And again facing penalties apply for attacks form the back hex(es), where are the rules (other then in TG) for facing and CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Which brings us to looking at other possibilities:
He does not approach.
He CA's.
He AoA's.
He defensively approaches in AoD:Dodge.
He Moves And Attacks (maybe with a Slam).
He Moves in.
Thoughts on each?
AoA seems too risky against a skilled opponent: instant grab/takedown, maybe Trip or something else, at +4 for Telegraphic Attack.
I'm happy to look at all of them But I suggest we do one at a time, because I think were confusing each other because we're not sure which set up we're referring to at each point of the the back and forth here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Jump-kick feint does look OTT. A trip/sweep seems like an absolutely legit threat! IF the opponent doesn't take leg threats seriously, he should suffer a big penalty to defending against leg attacks, at least as severe as Boxers get, probably worse.
That seems reasonable, or course the QC will be based off your Sweep or trip skill, which makes sense its harder to believably pretend to sweep than pretend to punch.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-14-2014 at 01:55 AM.
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