Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-11-2014, 06:12 AM   #21
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorka View Post
Try to kick him in a joint (knee) MA p. 137 or if not using MA go for the foot, he will likely have some armour in the form of boots so knee is better. If you can deal a crippling blow or otherwise get him prone you have a better chance.

Boots should give some protection from knife parries.
I like this as a general thing, mostly because kicking to the inside of the knee is a very common attack for us in Modern Arnis.

The problem with this in GURPS is you are looking at very steep penalties.

Targeting the Knee (Joint) with a Kick is a -7 (-5 for the joint, -2 for the kick). It's doable at skill 18 with no improved techniques, but you won't be stacking on any deceptive attack, which makes a parry more likely. And getting parried by a guy with a knife is basically giving him a free attack on your turn.

Now, if you have maxed out Kicking and bought up TA Kick/Joint(Knee) to max, you can do it at only a -2, but that's a pretty heavy investment (7 total build points)

In real life, I wouldn't attempt that move until after I got control of the weapon arm.


Quote:
Realistically unarmed against a knife is almost impossible to manage without injuries.
Truth.

My instructor always says "In a knife fight, one of you is going to the ER, and the other is going to the morgue."
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 07:55 AM   #22
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Don't forget that if your using MA pg125: 'harsh realism', parries with hands and C reach weapon to stamps and kicks to legs are at -2.

And if your parrying with your feet you can't retreat.

However I do find it a bit odd that a stamp to the ankle defaults at -10 (-3 to stamp, -7 to target the ankle) which is the same penalty to hit the eye through a visor slit.

Stamp to the ankle is obviously the worst of both attack type and target of course, and TBF in balance a ST10 without heavy boots is doing 1d-1 thr cr damage and will cripple the ankle of a ST10 target 50% of the time

Also while maxing out Kicking and TA Kick/Joint(Knee) is hefty investment, you have that kicking bonus for other kicking attacks as well.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-11-2014 at 08:05 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 08:04 AM   #23
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
My instructor always says "In a knife fight, one of you is going to the ER, and the other is going to the morgue."
This might be a reason to go with a simpler Disarm option rather than complex (and probably cp expensive) Arm Lock combos. If the Disarm works it's not a knife fight any more.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 08:36 AM   #24
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This might be a reason to go with a simpler Disarm option rather than complex (and probably cp expensive) Arm Lock combos. If the Disarm works it's not a knife fight any more.
To be fair, the problem with the Arm/Joint Lock approach in GURPS is time, not really CP cost. A Judo 18 guy can Arm Lock at 18 without having to improve it.

Basic/MA Disarming is an attack at -2 (which can be parried/dodged) following by a QC. If you win, the knife goes flying. If the bad guy wins by 1 or 2, he keeps the knife but it is unready. Otherwise, he keeps the knife and can stab you on his turn.

This is a pretty safe bet for the Judo-18 guy vs the Knife-12, but you'll have to take some further steps after that to keep him from picking the knife back up.

In reference to the quote, yeah, IRL controlling the limb and disarming the knife is critical to avoid the trip to the morgue. All this is assuming that running or giving the guy your wallet isn't an option for some reason. I've been training in FMA since 1990 (PTK with a little JKD mixed in, and Modern Arnis for the last 7 years) and I would do everything in my power to avoid a knife fight. It's REALLY scary once you learn how easy it is to get cut and how hard it is to control/disarm someone who is really intent on poking holes in you.
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 09:02 AM   #25
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Don't forget that if your using MA pg125: 'harsh realism', parries with hands and C reach weapon to stamps and kicks to legs are at -2.
Good point. And since the knife is already at -1 to Parry, it makes it pretty unlikely to happen unless your foe is really skilled.

Quote:
However I do find it a bit odd that a stamp to the ankle defaults at -10 (-3 to stamp, -7 to target the ankle) which is the same penalty to hit the eye through a visor slit.

Stamp to the ankle is obviously the worst of both attack type and target of course, and TBF in balance a ST10 without heavy boots is doing 1d-1 thr cr damage and will cripple the ankle of a ST10 target 50% of the time.
If you have a high enough Karate or Brawling to even think about attempting this, you'll get a damage bonus from high skill.

So ST 10 Karate guy with Karate-18 is doing 1d+1 thr cr with a Stamp Kick.

At that point, I'm not sure if it's worth bothering to target the Ankle(Joint) over just the Foot. You only need 4 points of damage to cripple the foot vs. 3 to cripple the Ankle on a 10-HP opponent. Even with a 16 HP opponent, you are looking at needing 5 damage vs. ankle compared to 6 damage vs. the foot.

I'd rather just go for the Foot and be able to sink another 2 points into Deceptive Attack. And if I built a Martial Artist, I'd probably have ST 12 at minimum, and more likely ST 14.

At that point, your Stamp Kick is doing 1d+3 thr cr, so crippling the foot is almost guaranteed.

Quote:
Also while maxing out Kicking and TA Kick/Joint(Knee) is hefty investment, you have that kicking bonus for other kicking attacks as well.
True. From an efficiency standpoint, it's really hard not to max out Kicking if you are building a hand-to-hand fighter. It's just very good...especially with being able to attack at Reach 1.
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 09:38 AM   #26
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
It's generally better to Sideslip and then step into the foe's hex for the grab.
The real beauty of this approach is that you can slip to the the non-weapon side (the knife-wielder's left side assuming he's holding the knife in his right). That way, even if he defends against the arm lock (or whatever you're trying to do to him), he can't damage you with the knife as part of that parry.
Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 09:39 AM   #27
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Good point. And since the knife is already at -1 to Parry, it makes it pretty unlikely to happen unless your foe is really skilled.
Good point



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
If you have a high enough Karate or Brawling to even think about attempting this, you'll get a damage bonus from high skill.

So ST 10 Karate guy with Karate-18 is doing 1d+1 thr cr with a Stamp Kick.

At that point, I'm not sure if it's worth bothering to target the Ankle(Joint) over just the Foot. You only need 4 points of damage to cripple the foot vs. 3 to cripple the Ankle on a 10-HP opponent. Even with a 16 HP opponent, you are looking at needing 5 damage vs. ankle compared to 6 damage vs. the foot.

I'd rather just go for the Foot and be able to sink another 2 points into Deceptive Attack. And if I built a Martial Artist, I'd probably have ST 12 at minimum, and more likely ST 14.

At that point, your Stamp Kick is doing 1d+3 thr cr, so crippling the foot is almost guaranteed..
Very true



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
True. From an efficiency standpoint, it's really hard not to max out Kicking if you are building a hand-to-hand fighter. It's just very good...especially with being able to attack at Reach 1.
Yeah
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 09:45 AM   #28
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
The real beauty of this approach is that you can slip to the the non-weapon side (the knife-wielder's left side assuming he's holding the knife in his right). That way, even if he defends against the arm lock (or whatever you're trying to do to him), he can't damage you with the knife as part of that parry.
True, but while his ability to attack you with the knife is compromised (especially if it's a long one), you haven't dealt with the knife. It make's a good choice dilemma.

The problem is it only going to take one good/lucky hit from the knife to win the fight (and your defences are compromised as well while grappling).

I tend to have first priority immobilising the weapon, or to be sure how to end the fight very quickly from the point of grappling.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-11-2014 at 10:28 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 09:50 AM   #29
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
The real beauty of this approach is that you can slip to the the non-weapon side (the knife-wielder's left side assuming he's holding the knife in his right). That way, even if he defends against the arm lock (or whatever you're trying to do to him), he can't damage you with the knife as part of that parry.
Wow, neat nuance. I need to look at wrong side modifiers. This seems like potentially very nasty when combined with Waits.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
The Eye of Eclipse Phase. A Discord server focusing on Roleplaying, Sci-Fi, Transhumanism, and discussion of other assorted topics, from tech to boardgames, from politics to philosophy.
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 10:49 AM   #30
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
The real beauty of this approach is that you can slip to the the non-weapon side (the knife-wielder's left side assuming he's holding the knife in his right). That way, even if he defends against the arm lock (or whatever you're trying to do to him), he can't damage you with the knife as part of that parry.
I'm not 100% sure how that is going to work.

Are you trying to Arm Lock his attacking arm? If so, he should still get the chance to Parry your Arm Lock with his Knife.

Are you trying to Arm Lock his non-attacking arm? I'm not sure you can do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martial Arts, pg 65
To use Arm Lock, you must have two hands free and make a successful barehanded parry with Judo or Wrestling against your opponent’s melee attack. On your first turn following the parry, you may attempt to capture your attacker’s arm if he’s still within one yard. This is an attack: step into
close combat and roll against Arm Lock to hit. Your foe may use any active defense – he can parry your hand with a weapon! If his defense fails, you trap his arm.
It doesn't specifically say that you MUST capture the attacking arm, but I'm sure that was Peter's intent.

If you've locked up the other arm, he can still attack you with the knife. I'm going to have to do some refresher reading before I can say definitively if it would be a wild swing or not.

But like Tomsdad said, you really want to get control of the knife hand/arm.
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
martial arts, technical grapping, technical grappling

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.