Rapier Wit: Overpriced?

[kaan]

Since it's a free action, meaning you can do it and attack, isn't it a real bargain?

[Sam Baughn]

Don't you mean Underpriced or Overpowered?

[chris1982]

I'm pretty sure he means that. There are about 5 threads regarding this topic already btw...

[transmetahuman]

I'm thinking Kromm's response (here's one; might be others around) is FAQ-worthy; it does seem to come up a lot.

Edit II: Ninja'd while editing by Kelly. :)

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by chris1982

There are about 5 threads regarding this topic already btw...

See http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...ghlight=rapier and http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...ghlight=rapier for the highlights. Basically, the important things to remember are:
1) You need to have some way of having personal knowledge of the person being zinged for it to work. It's insufficient to say "Your mother dresses you funny." You have to point out that that his cravat wasn't bespoke for him at all, it was meant for the Earl of Queensbury, and he just bought it when the Earl decided it was passe.
2) It only works once per combat per person.
3) Talking may be a free action, but that doesn't mean a good insult takes one second to deliver. It might take several seconds, and it's probably reasonable to demand Will checks if you get injured during that time.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Basically, the important things to remember are:
1) You need to have some way of having personal knowledge of the person being zinged for it to work. It's insufficient to say "Your mother dresses you funny." You have to point out that that his cravat wasn't bespoke for him at all, it was meant for the Earl of Queensbury, and he just bought it when the Earl decided it was passe.
2) It only works once per combat per person.
3) Talking may be a free action, but that doesn't mean a good insult takes one second to deliver. It might take several seconds, and it's probably reasonable to demand Will checks if you get injured during that time.

All this seem a very convoluted way to refuse to admit that Rapier Wit is overpriced and was intended for silly campaigns only.

The "Power Words" enhancement from Powers only makes things worse, allowing PCs to target everybody for 10 points.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Lupo

All this seem a very convoluted way to refuse to admit that Rapier Wit is overpriced and was intended for silly campaigns only.

I don't really agree with "convoluted". The bit about taking more than one second to deliver an insult has always struck me as fairly intuitively obvious - of course it's going to take longer than one second to deliver a scathing insult. Likewise the parts about only being useful against people who understand you. The "only once per combat" and "only against a known target" are, admittedly, not as clear in the original wording, but I believe Kromm when he claims that was the design intent, just not perfectly spelled out.
In any case, though, even without those last two limitations, I think Rapier Wit compares reasonably to things like Kiai. Basically, Rapier Wit lets you use Public Speaking as a Kiai skill that doesn't take an action or FP, but does take several more rounds to pull off. And there are a lot fewer things immune to Kiai.

Originally Posted by Lupo

The "Power Words" enhancement from Powers only makes things worse, allowing PCs to target everybody for 10 points.

Seems like a simple application of Cosmic to remove the language barrier limitation to me. If the "once per combat" still applies, that still seems not unbalanced to me.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I don't really agree with "convoluted". The bit about taking more than one second to deliver an insult has always struck me as fairly intuitively obvious - of course it's going to take longer than one second to deliver a scathing insult.

It may be realistic but in RAW it is false.
Rapier Wit says that talking is a free action and refers to p. 363:

You can always talk. If the GM wants to be realistic, he should allow only one sentence of communication per second . . . but it is usually more fun when you ignore this limitation!

So, by RAW, you are allowed at least one sentence per second, so you CAN insult a target.

Please note that with Rapier Wit you can also affect a whole group of similar opponents (so it's even more powerful) and the Basic Set explicitly says "This advantage is usually only appropriate in a silly campaign!" (p.80).

What I don't get is, why should traits be unbalanced in a silly campaign? Even if Rapier Wit is thematically suited to a silly campaign, it will be overpowered (e.g. everybody should buy it).

The "only once per combat" and "only against a known target" are, admittedly, not as clear in the original wording, but I believe Kromm when he claims that was the design intent, just not perfectly spelled out.

I believe him too but those limitaiton aren't "unclear" in the original wording, they are completely absent.

In any case, though, even without those last two limitations, I think Rapier Wit compares reasonably to things like Kiai.

I really don't think so. Kiai is useless because it requires a turn, so an ordinary attack is almost always a better option. Plus it costs fatigue, can't affect groups, requires Trained by a Master... there is really NO comparison.

Seems like a simple application of Cosmic to remove the language barrier limitation to me. If the "once per combat" still applies, that still seems not unbalanced to me.

Of course if you rewrite Rapier Wit in a radically different way, it may become balanced. By RAW, it isn't.

Note that Rapier Wit being unbalanced doesn't bother me at all - what I really didn't like was the "Words of Power" enhancement from Powers, that seemed to imply Rapier Wit was a "serious" trait, usable by "powered" characters alongside other traits.

[kaan]

*hangs head in shame*

I meant overpowered of course. I had started with underpriced and changed it mid-way...

Also, search for Rapier Wit didn't provide (on the first page) a thread with Rapier Wit on the title (or I didn't spot it) and I didn't look any further, my bad.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

1) You need to have some way of having personal knowledge of the person being zinged for it to work. It's insufficient to say "Your mother dresses you funny." You have to point out that that his cravat wasn't bespoke for him at all, it was meant for the Earl of Queensbury, and he just bought it when the Earl decided it was passe.

How about "your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries"?