06-27-2007, 11:19 PM | #71 | |||
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
Great to see this thread reserected. I have not dropped this project in the least, although going in sometimes slow. I was actually researching elven arms and armour when I refreshed the GURPS page and saw it jump to the top.
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As to the stats of the Vanyar, they should have the Calaquendi lens applied (which I am not sure if I actually posted to this board, but is available in its present form on my blog here.). Vanyar stats are important for a number of reasons. First, I don't want to limit the sourcebook to any particular time or place. If you wanted to run a game right after the elve's awakening a Vanyar elf would be a completely valid character. It could be quiet an adventure on a trek though early Middle-earth trying to get to Valinor. In this case, they would not have the Calequendi lens (of course). As Vaevictis Asmadi stated in a game set in Aman one could play a Vanyar. Plus, in a game set in the time of the War of Wrath, a Vanyar elf would be a valid character. Tolkien tells us: Quote:
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Heath Robinson ----- I created a jumbo-sized HeroQuest board from foam and I also built a case for a 55 inch TV to display animated RPG maps. |
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06-28-2007, 11:48 AM | #72 | ||||||
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota, U.S.A.
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
OK... my attempt to post my replies to the entire thread was too long to post! I hope it is not excessive to put it in 3 posts? Is it considered rude to reply this thoroughly? I don't want to hijack the conversation.
Please post the Calaquende lens? I personally suggest giving them bonuses (beyond other elves) to Health, Will, maybe 1 or 2 points to Strength, plus all the "in both worlds" advantages, and the lowest level of the Glowing (quirk level, appearance normal). There's a Pyramid article with Glowing written up as Ads and Disads, I don't know if they were incorporated into 4th Edition. I would give Calaquendi the lowest level, since it seems to be visible mainly in the dark. (Glorfindel seems to glow extra because he was reincarnated). Or it might be mostly visible only in the unseen world. Also, Calaquendi would have some knowledge about the Valar and Maiar that most folks don't get. There's a lot of good stuff in here that you guys have come up with, even though I mostly post replies to what I disagree with. I've been trying to work out some of this stuff on my own, but my knowledge of Middle-Earth is not matched by equal knowledge of GURPS. It's really nice to see you guys' ideas. Quote:
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I don't get any impression that the unseen world has tons of spirits running around in it. It would contain faded elves, and ghosts and lesser wraiths, and maybe give a bonus to detecting the presence of "unclad" Maiar. But I don't know of any spirits that are native to the unseen world. That seems more an animistic sort of thing. Anyway I don't see spirits being as common as people, until the Fifth Age or something when most of the elves are faded. Quote:
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The elven "magic" seems to me to be a matter of alchemy, of creating "magical" objects, not of casting spells or lighting fires by magic. It is an extension of the Noldor's amazing skill in crafting. Same with dwarven magic, really. Quote:
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I don't think they have Regeneration. They do heal more quickly than humans are capable of, but they can't regenerate body parts. I don't know where the relevant passage is written so I can only 'quote' from memory: "The Quendi healed rapidly from injuries that would kill mortals, but their bodies could not replace lost members, such as a hand hewn off." |
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06-28-2007, 11:51 AM | #73 | ||||||||
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota, U.S.A.
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
OK... continuing with my replies.
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"Re-birth is not the only fate of the houseless fear. The Shadow upon Arda caused not only misfortune and injury to the body. It could corrupt the mind... Moreover, some fear in grief or weariness relinquished their bodies, even though these might have been healed or were indeed unhurt. Few of these latter desired to be re-born... some never returned. Of the others, the wrong-doers, many were held long in 'waiting', and some were not permitted to take up their lives again. For there was, for all the fear of the Dead, a time of Waiting, in which, howsoever they had died, they were corrected, instructed, strengthened, or comforted, according to their deserts. ... Those who were healed could be re-born, if they desired it: none are re-born or sent back into life unwilling. The others remained, by desire or command, fear unbodied..." ~ Morgoth's Ring, pp. 222-223 Fear are the spirits or souls of elves and men. Since reincarnation is neither guaranteed nor quick, I can't see giving them Unkillable. Quote:
I can certainly see elves failing Will rolls against fading, though. The Calaquendi and Exiles in general seem to fade more slowly. But their first "aging" roll in that case would be at the age of, like, 8000 years. Isn't it said "and age diminishes their strength not, unless one grow weary of ten thousand years." Quote:
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Those who died, well... I had the impression many of them drowned (Noldor apparently aren't famous for their swimming powess) or died of hypothermia after falling in the water. Or just plain starved/froze; it takes a lot of food and energy to keep warm in extreme cold. Quote:
Glorfindel returned to Middle-Earth on a Numenorean ship. The Eresseans visited Numenor often enough, and Tar-Minastir was making an expedition to Lindon at that time to help the Eldar against the newly-revealed Sauron. However, Glorfindel was a major exception, and he needed special permission from the Valar to do this. Their general rule was that no elf from Aman or Eressea could go to Middle-Earth after the War of Wrath, even if they had died and the rest of their family lived on the other side of the sea. Glorfindel was sent for the same reason as the Istari, to be an emissary of the Valar and a help to the beleaguered Elves and mortals fighting Sauron. I think Glorfindel and Luthien were probably the only two elves that ever returned to Earth after death (but I don't know how Luthien traveled back). Quote:
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I think Gildor is just a guy from the household of those who served the Finarfir in the feudal/medieval sense. He doesn't seem important enough IMHO to be a royal prince. I'd expect him to have a greater part in the War of the Ring. Quote:
Maedhros was also scary and orcs ran away from him, "as one who returns from the dead." implying to me that it was mostly a reincarnation thing (and he was something of an exception). Other than that, the Light of Aman could be a really low level of Turning in the Calaquende template, but I wouldn't make it much more than an Intimidation bonus against orcs and other monsters of darkness. |
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06-28-2007, 12:40 PM | #74 | |||
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
Thank you very much for your contributions Vaevictis Asmadi. Very interesting reads. For the moment, I'd like to comment on:
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Heath Robinson ----- I created a jumbo-sized HeroQuest board from foam and I also built a case for a 55 inch TV to display animated RPG maps. |
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06-28-2007, 01:14 PM | #75 | |
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
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06-28-2007, 01:26 PM | #76 | |
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
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You probably already know about these resources, but just in case: someone did a 200+ page free pdf sourcebook for making ME Rolemaster characters that goes way beyond MERP's resolution. Might be some ideaas to mine there, or at least something to spur thought. Michael Martinez's book of essays on ME, called Parma Endorian, is also a downloadable pdf and can be found in the downloads at www.merp.com, or googled elsewhere. Good luck with it.
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"I tried to straighten up and fly right, but it won't easy with that sumbitch Reagan in the White House." -- Serial Convenience Store Robber H.I. McDunnough in Raising Arizona |
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06-28-2007, 01:36 PM | #77 |
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
Thinking about the Noldor: would it be appropriate to have some game-system mechanic to represent their "doom"? The FA Vow to recover the Silmarils would be pretty straightforward, I guess, but how in GURPS would you represent the regret over and longing in the subtext of Galadriel's song ("What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a sea?") and in the implications of the defiance of the Valar, the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, etc. Seems too central to who they are as a race (in ME, anyway) to leave up to individual characterization.
Side-thought: the way Cate Blanchett's face lit up as she stepped onto the grey ship at the end of the movies captured perfectly for me the resolution of the despair of the Noldo. (I hope it was a deliberate choice...)
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"I tried to straighten up and fly right, but it won't easy with that sumbitch Reagan in the White House." -- Serial Convenience Store Robber H.I. McDunnough in Raising Arizona |
06-28-2007, 02:04 PM | #78 | |||||||||||||||||||
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota, U.S.A.
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
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On the other hand, you could change it to an Avari lens, sort of an anti-lens for the shared traits of the Eldar. One thing the Eldar have is a sort of Code of Honor: their culture forbid certain things in warfare such as using poison of any kind, torturing prisoners, or killing prisoners (even orcs) who asked for mercy. Of course some Eldar (Eol) violated this Code of Honor, but even nasty folk like Curufin stuck to it. Quote:
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OK, so I seem to have a lot of disagreements, but mostly I agree with a lot of your assessment. Language Talent, Light Walk (I'd never thought of that!), all good stuff. It is very interesting to see other's views on this stuff. Quote:
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Also, there were a few Vanyar who joined the Exile, such as Elenwe wife of Turgon. My opinion about writing: Many Nandor/Sylvans, especially in the earlier Ages, would be illiterate. Avari are probably mostly all illiterate, except in later ages as the "Dwarven" alphabet (really Sindarin Cirth) was gradually carried eastward, and maybe some Avari picked it up from them. Quote:
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But also, there are elven ghosts: "The fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among [the Avari] refusal of the summons to Mandos and the halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fea unbodied woudl flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge -- unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed into its dominion. In like manner even some of the Eldar who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth." ~ Morgoth's Ring It is important to note that only really corrupted individuals would do this -- even Feanor accepted the summons, although the presence of Morgoth may have frightened him. I wouldn't allow PCs to do this, unless somebody was already playing an utterly corrupt and wicked elf. But these ghosts do linger, wandering "houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it" and some of them like to trick living people into letting them possess them. Also, "Some were enslaved by he Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants ... is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant." Last edited by Vaevictis Asmadi; 06-28-2007 at 02:18 PM. |
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06-28-2007, 02:10 PM | #79 | |
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
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I did start pulling together some notes on Elven Arms and Armour for the Equipment section of the sourcebook. I also intended to use the notes to assemble suitable miniatures to represent them. I just put my notes (and it is an incomplete essay, but hopefully worthwhile) up HERE if anyone is interested.
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Heath Robinson ----- I created a jumbo-sized HeroQuest board from foam and I also built a case for a 55 inch TV to display animated RPG maps. |
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06-28-2007, 02:16 PM | #80 | ||
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota, U.S.A.
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Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template
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I like this a lot. I would prefer to add to their Will, Health, and Strength, as said in the Silmarillion that Calaquendi are super-tough, even by elvish standards. The power over the unseen I would reduce in power, and transfer some of it to the reincarnated elves, since I think Glorfindel seems to be the main source of this idea. My only big gripe though, other than the lack of attribute bonuses, is Unfazeable. I would much prefer to give extra levels of Will to represent a greater command over both mind and body, rather than something specific to fear. Also, Unfazeable is a lack of emotion and unfailing politeness at all times. Does Feanor really seem like a constantly polite, unemotional guy? There are plenty of anecdotes in the Silmarillion of Calaquendi being emotional or rude: "Fingon wept" .. "Feanor laughed as one fey, and his wrath was unleashed" .. "then Angrod was exceedingly wroth" .. Feanor calls his brother and his followers "useless baggage" and Thingol calls Beren a thrall! Thingol was fairly wrathful at times, then he became quite sorrowful over Luthien's death until he seemed like an aged mortal. I just can't see unemotional people getting so worked up into a froth by Feanor's speech in Tirion, as the Noldor did. When Finarfin tried to calm them down, they shouted "Nay, let us be gone!" These are on the contrary frequently fierce and impulsive people, and some of them have a tragic hero's propensity to over-displays of emotion. I wouldn't want to take that away from them. If Elrond and Galadriel seem wise and contemplative and always polite, I think it is more because of their age and, in Elrond's case, a basic facet of personality. But I wouldn't give them Unfazeable, either. Unfazeable to me, makes somebody a characture. You are right of course Gavynn, that it should be possible to include Vanyar and even reincarnated elves in a game. So here's my unfinished attempt. I gave faded elves ST and HT at 0, because they can't be physically harmed but are incorporeal and I think the implication is that as they become ethereal, they proportionately lose their physical strength over the physical world until they have virtually no power over the physical plane at all. Faded Elf (as a lens that you add to the racial template) HT 0 ST 0 Doesn’t Eat or Drink Immunity to Metabolic Hazards Immunity to Poison Insubstantiality (usually on) Invisibility (usually on) Sterile Maybe some variation of Unkillable, since they literally can't be killed. Maybe they even have Doesn't Breathe. The Lingerers, as Tolkien calls them, still have bodies in a way, but the body is "consumed" by the "fire of the spirit" until it exists only as a memory. An elf can reveal themselves to mortals if they wish "through [the mortal's] mind working outwardly, maybe". They are generally invisible and insubstantial, though, so they are easily confused with ghosts. But unlike ghosts they can't possess people. Manu (Reincarnated Elf) (as a lens you add to the racial template) HT +2 or 3 Will +? Glowing 2 (appearance normal) (this is an Advantage described in a Pyramid article) Social Regard () Taboo Traits: "evil" personality traits. plus part of the Control Over the Unseen thing you gave to Calaquendi. I don't really know how to put into GURPS all of the traits of them. Manur are elves who were either judged completely worthy, or who repented all of their sins and learned from all their mistakes, and were let out of Mandos. It is difficult to judge solely from Glorfindel because he is exceptional even for a manu, but Morgoth's Rin and Peoples of Middle-Earth have some info. A manu is one who has overcome their worst limitations that they had in their earlier life, given up all malice toward fellow elves and humans, faced death, been cleansed of the influence of the Shadow on their spirits and minds, been healed of any psychological trauma, increased in wisdom and patience, been taught by the Maiar of Mandos to learn from the mistakes and sorrows of their earlier life, and finally were blessed by Manwe and Varda before getting a new body. They are also "more patient of hurts" and have higher HT than even other Calaquendi, and they have even greater control over their bodies, minds, and spirits (increased Will and maybe a point of extra DX) In terms of HT, DX, and Will, this is only an exaggeration of the self-control and mastery of the body that all elves have, and which mortals lack. Reincarnation, or the waiting which precedes it, also seems to increase their spiritual efficacy. Finally, concerning all elves I forgot to add: I think they all get Voice, as it is said that elves' voices are always sweet and light and beautiful. And when I said they should have Less Sleep instead of Doesn't Sleep, I should have added that they also would have Light Sleeper. Finally, although I don't have the text that says whether all elves are ambidextrous or only some of them, I do know that elves in general can write either right-handed or left-handed whenever they please, which seems to be a Perk. Tolkien also described that elves in general have higher resistance to pain than mortals, and greater command over their bodies. This is not only DX but also Will to overcome hunger, thirst, addiction, tiredness, pain, lust, sex drive, discomfort, and various "urges" of the body that mortals so easily give in to. Last edited by Vaevictis Asmadi; 06-28-2007 at 02:44 PM. |
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