[Space] Adapting "Honorverse" Concepts to GURPS

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No that just determines the range. The travel time is less than a Spaceships Turn at anything like that distance. It's only 3-4 minutes in RW terms.

Missile volley/missile volley s the right structure for Honorverse ship combat.

But the cycle time for the missile launchers is quite a bit less than a minute. When firing all out, you typically have to stack up multiple volleys in flight, which frequently has consequences.

And merging multiple volleys isn't appropriate either. Combining multiple launcher volleys into one is a technical challenge in the setting. Failing to keep volleys discrete would also weaken the shock of missile pods.

Also, relative velocity of combatants is a significant factor in effective missile range, which it wouldn't be for warp missiles.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Honorverse grav guns are very much the TL11^ guns of that name in UT. It's a very clear port. I've even heard that David Pulver may even have suggested to David Weber the idea of gravity-based projectile weapons before the whole series started.

I was never in contact with David Weber.

His sometime co-author Steve White corresponded with me in the early 90s, back when they were doing the Starfire books, and we did discuss future weapons and technology.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

I was never in contact with David Weber.

His sometime co-author Steve White corresponded with me in the early 90s, back when they were doing the Starfire books, and we did discuss future weapons and technology.

Sorry I got t wrong. Glad to clear things up.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

But the cycle time for the missile launchers is quite a bit less than a minute. When firing all out, you typically have to stack up multiple volleys in flight, which frequently has consequences.

And merging multiple volleys isn't appropriate either. Combining multiple launcher volleys into one is a technical challenge in the setting. Failing to keep volleys discrete would also weaken the shock of missile pods.

Also, relative velocity of combatants is a significant factor in effective missile range, which it wouldn't be for warp missiles.

These are all issues for an ultimately simulationist Honorverse space combat game which I believe would be impractical to play.

You would also probably find that these initial details would have to be determined randomly as there would be no author to dictate the set-up conditions.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

These are all issues for an ultimately simulationist Honorverse space combat game which I believe would be impractical to play.

If you're not actually going to represent the critical tactical considerations of the setting, what's the point? For an Honorverse game that cares that little about spaceship combat, why bother with a spaceship combat system? Just use Mass Combat or something.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You would also probably find that these initial details would have to be determined randomly as there would be no author to dictate the set-up conditions.

GURPS is traditionally played with a GM...

And missile pods, relative velocities, and combatants present tend to be factors influenced by PC decisions, if PCs have an important role in the combat.

[Michael Cule]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

These are all issues for an ultimately simulationist Honorverse space combat game which I believe would be impractical to play.

I couldn't possibly comment but look here.

If you're not going to focus on life in the space navies, where are you going to run an Honorverse game?

Personally, I would say that I have no interest in role-playing someone trapped in a fragile container while people hurl dangerous toys at me. Especially not if the Salamander is anywhere in my chain of command!

[DaltonS]

Wow! I've never got such a response from new topic before. Frankly, adapting all the "Honorverse" tech to GURPS would be a major project in itself. I was more interested in defining the cosmology and converting the grav/hyper drive tech so that a GURPS Space campaign could be played in an Honor Harrington style universe. Below are the hyperlimits calculated for main sequence stars from GURPS Space.

Stellar Hyperlimit|Stellar Hyperlimit|Stellar Hyperlimit
Type Mass (c-sec) |Type Mass (c-sec) |Type Mass (c-sec)
 A5  2.00  2,454  | F7  1.25  1,534  | K5  0.65   798
 A6  1.90  2,331  | F8  1.20  1,472  | K6  0.60   736
 A7  1.80  2,209  | F9  1.15  1,411  | K8  0.55   675
 A8  1.75  2,147  | G0  1.10  1,350  | M0  0.50   614
 A9  1.70  2,086  | G1  1.05  1,288  | M1  0.45   552
 F0  1.60  1,963  | G2  1.00  1,227  | M2  0.40   491
 F1  1.55  1,902  | G4  0.95  1,166  | M3  0.35   429
 F2  1.50  1,841  | G6  0.90  1,104  | M4  0.30   368
 F3  1.45  1,779  | G8  0.85  1,043  | M4  0.25   307
 F4  1.40  1,718  | K0  0.80   982   | M5  0.20   245
 F5  1.35  1,656  | K2  0.75   920   | M6  0.15   184
 F6  1.30  1,595  | K4  0.70   859   | M7  0.10   123

There are a few elements about David Weber's Honorverse tech that I find a bit ... odd.

Impeller Drive - This is essentially a gravitational bootstrap drive that causes the ship to fall into an artificial gravity well that moves with the ship. This leads to a couple of questions:

1. Why are inertial compensators needed? If the ship is falling into a gravity well, the hull's contents should fall at the same rate.
2. Why would a smaller ship have a greater maximum acceleration than a larger one? If anything, a larger drive should create a stronger gravity well and thus a higher acceleration.

The answer to both questions could involve tidal forces exerted on the hull. The main acceleration vector would be along the central axis of the wedge, with off-center tidal forces increasing on the hull and its contents proportionally to the distance from this axis and the magnitude of the acceleration. Thus stress on the hull would be determined by the ship's displacement and design (a merchant vessel would be spherical to maximize cargo volume, while a warship would be an elongated cylinder to minimize the mean radius being stressed). Therefore a larger (or fatter) ship would have a lower maximum acceleration to partially compensate for tidal stress on the hull, with inertial compensators protecting the interior.

Optional Ship Systems: Maximum military acceleration of a Superwarp Drive should be (600 - SM×10) Gs with a military grade (grav) compensator, or half that with a civilian grade one (half price). Note that maximum routine (safe) accelerations should be 80% this; for 81%-90%, do an "Engineering (Gravitics)" skill once per game day to determine system failure, while for 91%-100% do the roll once per game hour. If the compensator fails, the crew dies.
The drive itself should be divided into 2 half systems split between front and rear hull sections. These are the beta nodes: to add alpha nodes for "grav sail" option (10× normal acceleration in a grav wave), increase cost and reduce thrust by 1/3 (to keep the same thrust, use two small systems in each hull section rather than a half system, with total drive cost increasing by 50%). Working the "partial drive field" option seems a bit tricky.

Dalton “who has issues with the Honorverse tech sequence too” Spence

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DaltonS

Impeller Drive - This is essentially a gravitational bootstrap drive that causes the ship to fall into an artificial gravity well that moves with the ship. This leads to a couple of questions:[LIST=a][*]Why are inertial compensators needed? If the ship is falling into a gravity well, the hull's contents should fall at the same rate. [*]Why would a smaller ship have a greater maximum acceleration than a larger one? If anything, a larger drive should create a stronger gravity well and thus a higher acceleration.

The problem here is your basic premise. Why do you think there's an artificial gravity well effect or that the ships are in freefall when they accelerate? Hardly anything about how they behave or are described agrees with that.

It seems to me that the impeller drive is a typical reactionless drive in function, albeit with extremely high performance. The impeller wedge somehow allows the ship to push off from empty space with pretty much arbitrary force, limited mainly by the vessel's ability to survive that force. That's primarily determined by the inertial compensator, the performance of which depends on the strength of the wedge and on the space covered. (Volume? Longest dimension? I don't remember, but it was discussed in some of the books.)

The critical role of the inertial compensator in determining performance is very clear in the books. Going at maximum acceleration is redlining your compensator, not your impeller nodes. The size of the largest warships is the size at which compensator efficiency starts tailing off too much, and has increased over time as technology improved that.


There's also described as being some hull shape requirements pertaining to nodes, at least in the early books, which justify the universal 'spindle' shape. I'm not sure what they are, but I'm pretty sure Honorverse freighters aren't at all spherical.


Troubling point: Compensator failure is generally described as killing everyone aboard. But it seems extremely unlikely that the internal construction of any starship would hold up under 500g! I'd expect most of the ship to be turned into confetti, the drive system to rip itself out of the hull, and/or the reactor to blow, but in the books a compensator failure seems to leave the ship (or partial ship, as a lot of such failures seem to happen when a warship breaks in half) at least superficially intact.

Troubling point the second: I don't remember whether there are inertial compensators in missile blueprints, but it seems obvious that they would be required.

Less troubling point: Nobody ever pushes their acceleration further up by allowing noticeable G-forces on the ship to get through the compensator. I'd suggest that the compensator functions in an additive manner rather than multiplicative. (Alternatively there may be no way to make the compensator work at a level other than totally canceling the impeller's acceleration?)

[DaltonS]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The problem here is your basic premise. Why do you think there's an artificial gravity well effect or that the ships are in freefall when they accelerate? Hardly anything about how they behave or are described agrees with that.

Because of the angle at which the bands were generated relative to one another, the vessel rode a small pocket of normal-space (open ahead of the vessel and closing in astern) trapped between the grav waves, much as a surfboard rides the crest or curl of a wave, which was driven along between the stress bands.

The Universe of Honor Harrington - More Than Honor

If "the vessel rode a small pocket of normal-space" then everything in that pocket should be accelerating at the same rate. Thus my first question stands. My tidal forces theory was an attempt to explain why any compensators would be needed in a GURPS Space setting. I'm not trying to re-create the technology of the Honorverse; I just want to set up some GURPS tech with similar limitations.

For example, the Hyper-generator is the Stardrive from p.25 GURPS Spaceships with the standard (civilian) version [TL10+] being limited to the first four bands (Alpha to Delta) and the super (military) version [TL11+] able to reach the eighth (Theta) band (the last four bands require FTL-2). For the Mesan "Streak" drive [TL12] that can reach the ninth and tenth (Iota and Kappa) bands, use two super stardrives (requiring FTL-3 and 4 respectively). Each hyperspace translation should require a "Piloting (Hyperspace)" roll with a skill penalty equal lower band number (just to make things ... interesting).

Dalton “who has no intention of becoming the next David Weber” Spence

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Troubling point: Compensator failure is generally described as killing everyone aboard. But it seems extremely unlikely that the internal construction of any starship would hold up under 500g! I'd expect most of the ship to be turned into confetti, the drive system to rip itself out of the hull, and/or the reactor to blow, but in the books a compensator failure seems to leave the ship (or partial ship, as a lot of such failures seem to happen when a warship breaks in half) at least superficially intact.

If you assume that the most of the ships structure is more resistant to high acceleration than either human bodies or some critical drive component, a compensator failure could usually lead to killing the crew nearly instantly then killing the drive almost as instantly, with the rest of the ship surviving because the drive died before it could destroy the structure. IIRC, that's not the actual way it works in the Honorverse, but if you are trying to adapt the general concern with compensators rather than detailed mechanism, it might work.