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Old 08-14-2009, 05:36 PM   #91
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
Default Re: Powerstones

Not really. If Manastones are available, then there's more or less no need to ever buy a Tyche potion if your intended use is for charging a powerstone. Just buy a Manastone instead. You not only won't need to do anything in the field to have it ready, but it'll also be cheaper.
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:43 PM   #92
Polaris
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default Re: Powerstones

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Not really. If Manastones are available, then there's more or less no need to ever buy a Tyche potion if your intended use is for charging a powerstone. Just buy a Manastone instead. You not only won't need to do anything in the field to have it ready, but it'll also be cheaper.
Really? What happens when you run out?

Recharging [which really means making a new] mundane (cheap) manastone costs 20 fatigue per casting. Basically it's about has hard in terms of labor and time to charge a mundane manastone as it is a powerstone. The huge difference is you don't have to pay for the gem.

However, in an adventuring/field situation, the field-time becomes critical. Sure you can load up on cheap manastones, but what happens when you run out (and you can only draw on one manastone at a time....just like powerstone).

What then? You are in the middle of the 3rd plane of Dante's Inferno and you've just blown your last manastone.....that's sort of thing is not an uncommon predictament for adventuring wizards!

If you've got a modest powerstone as backup you're golden. You use that and you can even recharge it cheaply and very safely and reliably (as I proved a few pages back). If you don't, you are S.O.L.

-Polaris
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:49 PM   #93
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
Default Re: Powerstones

I was talking about using a Manastone instead of a Tyche's potion to recharge a power stone, not as an alternative to power stones.
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:51 PM   #94
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Powerstones

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Using a Tyche elixer to charge a powerstone is also not recommended if you could, instead, purchase a Manastone of the same capacity or higher. If it's really a straight linear progression, then you would need a Powerstone greater than size 65, which is what you can get with a $1300 manastone.
Manastones will cost the cumulative expense of the castings plus the cost of the stone (same as Powerstone if you cast at 5pts, basically zero if you use the 4x cost option) x the cumulative risk of destroying the stone in repeated Enchantments.

Since Enchantment is ceremonial Magic it ignores both Luck and Bless and always Crit fails on a 17.

Big Manastones will be cheaper than big Powerstones but perhaps not much more common since the risk of destroying a valuable stone (i.e. one with many castings invested in it) is the same.

At a certain point, probably related to the cost of casting common spells it should make more sense to sell what you've got rather than roll the dice again to try and improve it and risk destruction. There aren't that many spells with a base cost of over 10 pts and over 20 pts.....well, I can think of 4 off-hand but there may not be many more than that.

So anyway, the cost of Manastones should not be linear. You can avoid destroying valuable gemstones but you can't avoid loss of invested labor.

If you have the Complete Powerstone article from Magic Items I or perhaps use this earlier version here....

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...owerstone.html

...I believe you can calculate the cost of manastones by just subtracting the materials cost. If you're using the "non-valuable item" option (highly recommended) the cost to cast si the same.

I'd actually want to doublecheck the assumptions about cost of wizard labor before I relied on it but the probabilities should be right.
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:52 PM   #95
Polaris
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default Re: Powerstones

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
I was talking about using a Manastone instead of a Tyche's potion to recharge a power stone, not as an alternative to power stones.
Ah, I misunderstood. Yes, the use of a Tyche's potion is really a corner case. It only makes sense if you have a large enough powerstone (about 18 or so carats) and you run out of manastones.

I'll agree it doesn't make sense most of the time.

-Polaris
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:55 PM   #96
Polaris
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default Re: Powerstones

Fred,

I believe I corrected myself a while ago and said the cost was nearly linear. The big component in powerstone costs is the cost of the game AND it's replacement cost when you have a failure.

If you subtract out the material cost AND replacement cost and just use the cost of multiple castings, you find it's a very weak quadratic and thus vastly cheaper (and nearly linear) for all realistic values of manastones).

-Polaris
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:56 PM   #97
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
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Default Re: Powerstones

The cost of wizard labor in that article is $25 per casting - in this edition it's $20 per casting.

So, after rejiggering the formulae, you come out with a Manastone of capacity 40 being $1,271.20. Still much larger than the typical powerstone - so your break-even point for using a Tyche's potion to recharge your powerstone is now just at the 40 point capacity level instead of the 65 point capacity level.
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:02 PM   #98
Polaris
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default Re: Powerstones

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
The cost of wizard labor in that article is $25 per casting - in this edition it's $20 per casting.

So, after rejiggering the formulae, you come out with a Manastone of capacity 40 being $1,271.20. Still much larger than the typical powerstone - so your break-even point for using a Tyche's potion to recharge your powerstone is now just at the 40 point capacity level instead of the 65 point capacity level.
Except it doesn't work that way. In a word with both cheap manastones and powerstones, they will be used for different things. Manastones will be your primary fatigue "tank" that can't be recharged in the adventure once it's used up. Powerstones represent your 'rechargeable' reserve. If you crank the math, it's economical to use a tyche's potion to help recharge a powerstone if that powerstone has a size of about 18. The presence or absence of manastones doesn't change that (since it's a different but related animal).

It's worth noting (for Fred) that a power 40 powerstone (per page 20 GURPS Magic) costs 38,000 gold vice approx 1300 or about 30 times as much.

-Polaris
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:24 PM   #99
Langy
 
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Default Re: Powerstones

Quote:
The presence or absence of manastones doesn't change that (since it's a different but related animal).
Yes, it does. If you have the option to purchase a manastone for $1300 or purchase a Tyche's potion for $1300 whose sole purpose is for charging a powerstone, then it makes more economic sense to purchase the manastone unless your powerstone is incredibly large. Think of it this way - if you could pay $1300 to recharge a powerstone by thirty points or buy a 40 point manastone, which is the better deal?

Obviously, it's the manastone. You get ten more points of power and your powerstone will continue to recharge on its own. If you just recharge the stone, you'll get much less utility out of it - just those thirty points, rather than the 40+ points of the manastone.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:32 PM   #100
Polaris
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default Re: Powerstones

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Yes, it does. If you have the option to purchase a manastone for $1300 or purchase a Tyche's potion for $1300 whose sole purpose is for charging a powerstone, then it makes more economic sense to purchase the manastone unless your powerstone is incredibly large. Think of it this way - if you could pay $1300 to recharge a powerstone by thirty points or buy a 40 point manastone, which is the better deal?

Obviously, it's the manastone. You get ten more points of power and your powerstone will continue to recharge on its own. If you just recharge the stone, you'll get much less utility out of it - just those thirty points, rather than the 40+ points of the manastone.

This is only true if you have a relatively easy access to those that can provide you with full manastones all the time. In societies that have both powerstones and manastones, that's likely for any centre of civilization strong enough to support an enchanter type wizard (likely large town or bigger), but that doesn't help you if you are cut off for days or weeks on end without magical resupply!

I'm sorry, but you seem to keep on missing this primary point and limiation on Manastones. For the adventuring wizard (because of the length of time for reenchantment), a manastone once used is likely GONE until you can buy another one.

However, a powerstone with the charge powerstone spell, is a reusuable magical "battery" in addition to your own fatigue and that's a god-send. In the case where your "battery" is greater than 18 or so, it's worth it to use a Tyche potion to recharge.

It's not that hard.

-Polaris
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