Bruised and Broken Ribs

[AlexanderHowl]

Thank you. Yes, they are healing well, they are only bruised thankfully.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Thank you. Yes, they are healing well, they are only bruised thankfully.

That's good to hear!

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Keampe

I was looking at the injury rules and had the realization that a major wound to the limb results in that limb being crippled, possibly long term, but that there is no such crippling effect from head or torso injuries.

Not in Basic, but MA136 gave 3 progressive thresholds (1/3 1/2 2/3) for torso injuries, but yeah not using the usual HT rolls and long term recoveries we're accustomed to.

Which... gets somewhat confusing to apply when breaking down the torso to the point where it barely exists anymore in Low-Tech terms (chest/abdomen/vitals/groin/digestive/pelvis)

In terms of the head, MA137 at leasts allows crippling to the nose/ears...

I think the ability to cripple the new "spine" hit location (something which I'm not sure made it anywhere in LT) is probably the closest we get to crippleable torso.

Also important in the 'notes for existing' for the Neck is how you can also target spine-via-neck which enhances the disadvantages you gain from crippling.

Plus a note that Neck Snap or a Judo Throw from a Head Lock will automatically target this.

Either way the threshold here is full HP rather than fractions so it's tough.

We basically have "neck spine" and "torso spine" but unless doing a Neck Snap or Throw from Head Lock you're only looking at a 1 in 6 random chance of hitting the cervical spine from rear crushing hits.

MA138 is probably the most important addition here:

On a major wound (injury over HP/2) to the neck, skull, veins/arteries, or vitals, roll 3d on the appropriate table to see whether there is any effect beyond lost HP

This basically introduces crippling rules to these locations. Not torso wounds in general, though there's random chances for that to hit vitals.

Originally Posted by Keampe

My thought is that you don't really need the extra location. Any major injury to the torso (location 9-10) should have that be a possibility.

It basically is, though it's GM's option. MA137 NfEHL:

alter the hit locations in the Basic Set as follows.
The GM may reserve extra die rolls for randomly targeted attacks.

The default seems to be you roll these dice whether you're targeting intentionally or randomly, but that GMs could opt to only have it on randoms and avoid it as an intentional option if they please.

One of those is that torso hits have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting vitals for crush/impale/pierce/TBburn, which are nonspecific enough that you could I guess have it represent whatever you'd like it to.

Well... SOMETIMES nonspecific, we're told "solar plexus from front" and "kidneys from behind" for intentional crushing attacks to vitals in the new option... plus groin sometimes gets considered vitals, or heart for vamps, maybe other stuff.

Originally Posted by Keampe

My own would be something like: A major injury (over HP/2) to the torso results in the equivalent of Bad Back (pg 123) and Unfit (pg160).

The idea being rather than hitting the spine (has DR) you're hitting the spinal muscles? I like it.

Complications arise if someone already has those disadvantages though... I'd rather just have fixed penalties which can stack with additional criteria.

Why not just the longer-term shock (using pain thresholds) that are introduced in Conditional Injury?

[Keampe]

The partial wounds from MA I like, but they don't last terribly long, certainly not anywhere near the timeframe that broken ribs do. In terms of Low Tech, the Chest location is what I'm looking at here.

Now, I'm not really looking for extra damage like the 1 in 6 chance of hitting the vitals - I'm more looking at the lasting injury that is not life threatening but is debilitating like the lasting crippling of limbs. I'm just applying it to the chest to reflect broken ribs.

Using the Bad Back disadvantage in this case is not really the back or spine being hit. It's simply using the same rules and transposing them to "Broken Ribs" so same HT rolls and same penalties same game effects, but it's the ribs that have been broken, not the spine. I just felt the penalties were pretty equivalent.

As to the conditional injury modifiers and making them last longer.... That could work and be easier. I'd want to up them, though - broken ribs are more debilitating than those. Your point about people already having those disadvantages was not something I'd considered, so I guess you'd just have to roll for each?

- Shane

[Plane]

A broken pelvis is also pretty bad, I think that's what they mean when elderly fall and have a 'broken hip'. Maybe WORSE than a broken rib?

Despite that, pg 15 of Tactical Shooting doesn't seem to use long-term crippling rules for this either. Major wounds make you fall down "until healed" but it doesn't say crippling so presumably that just means standard HP-based healing times.

If we're going to introduce longer healing times for chest-adjacent bones in the upper torso then pelvic bones in the lower torso should be tied together with it.

I'm not really looking for extra damage like the 1 in 6 chance of hitting the vitals - I'm more looking at the lasting injury that is not life threatening but is debilitating like the lasting crippling of limbs. I'm just applying it to the chest to reflect broken ribs.

My recommendation of vitals covering it wasn't just because of more damage but also because vitals (along with neck/skull/veins) now have long-term crippling rules from MA138

The table you roll on MA139 is pretty random for selecting organs though... can't seem to intentionally select "weakened heart" or "deep hole" or "susceptible to disease" if one effect was more desired.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Plane

A broken pelvis is also pretty bad, I think that's what they mean when elderly fall and have a 'broken hip'. Maybe WORSE than a broken rib?

Usually, a "broken hip" is breaking the head of the thigh bone off the rest of the bone. This is much worse than a broken rib, because it deprives you of the use of the leg, and it often requires surgery, while broken ribs often don't.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Usually, a "broken hip" is breaking the head of the thigh bone off the rest of the bone.

I can see that now that I bothered to look it up, "femoral neck fracture" seems to be the most common thing called BH. I guess I got thrown off since I so often see pelvis nicknamed 'hips'.

Originally Posted by johndallman

This is much worse than a broken rib, because it deprives you of the use of the leg, and it often requires surgery, while broken ribs often don't.

I'm actually trying to puzzle out why it is that a gunman would shoot the pelvis instead of the leg...

It's -3 to hit and a major wound always causes knockdown and Lame (Missing Legs)...

B421 also guarantees falling down and suffering Missing Legs, but legs are only -2 to hit...

B399 reduces wound multipliers for large/huge piercing or impaling to x1 for limbs, so the pelvis makes more sense for THOSE kinds of weapons (pelvis counts as torso injury so it enjoys the usual higher multipliers) but not for normal piercing or small piercing...

B278 has a mix of them, so it seems like if the gun is "pi+" it makes sense to shoot the pelvis but for "pi" or "pi-" guns, the leg seems like the more sensible target since it's easier to hit and gives just as much injury, unless for some reason the guy is wearing leg armor which doesn't cover the pelvis.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm actually trying to puzzle out why it is that a gunman would shoot the pelvis instead of the leg... so it seems like if the gun is "pi+" it makes sense to shoot the pelvis but for "pi" or "pi-" guns, the leg seems like the more sensible target since it's easier to hit and gives just as much injury, unless for some reason the guy is wearing leg armor which doesn't cover the pelvis.

According to Tactical Shooting p. 15, few authorities actually recommend shooting for the pelvis. A Major Wound there does take out both legs, which might sometimes be significant.

As someone whose knowledge of gun combat comes mostly from GURPS, I generally assume pi- guns are mostly for shots to the vitals or skull, where the damage penalty is overridden by the location's wounding modifier.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by johndallman

According to Tactical Shooting p. 15, few authorities actually recommend shooting for the pelvis. A Major Wound there does take out both legs, which might sometimes be significant.

As someone whose knowledge of gun combat comes mostly from GURPS, I generally assume pi- guns are mostly for shots to the vitals or skull, where the damage penalty is overridden by the location's wounding modifier.

Well, that's how you have to use them if they are pistol power. For rifles with AP rounds it's not so critical as they still do enough damage on normal torso or limb hits to be effective.

BTW, I do think that pi- is a bit weak at 1/2 damage, and should probably be 2/3rds damage, if for no other reason than 7.62mm Tokarev did not have that terrible a reputation as a pistol and SMG round in WWII, and nor did the Mauser C96.

[namada]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

That's good to hear!

Yup...

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Thank you. Yes, they are healing well, they are only bruised thankfully.

...and only bruised you're in that much pain? You've had the x-rays to prove that, I hope, but who knows with the way doc-offices are working right now. I've had once-essential appointments cancelled recently, because they're suddenly no longer essential, somehow. As if the meds I were taking 6-months ago that I had to monitor organ-function with suddenly stopped affecting those organs! It's a miracle! Praise Jesus! Thank you for SARS-CoV-2!

Originally Posted by johndallman

Usually, a "broken hip" is breaking the head of the thigh bone off the rest of the bone. This is much worse than a broken rib, because it deprives you of the use of the leg, and it often requires surgery, while broken ribs often don't.

Yep, I had a grandfather with the issue, it's basically Lame, in GURPS terms, but most folks that get that in the real world are already older, and experiencing decreased healing rates because of age, so the loss of one leg is the same as the loss of two.