Negative HP and its effects

[namada]

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[Varyon]

Originally Posted by fartrader

I don't think I understand the issue then? It's not "act normally" for a person at full HP, it's "act normally" for a conscious person.

The problem is that, upon awakening, the character explicitly no longer needs to roll every second to stay conscious (at least until they're wounded again). Let's say you've got three characters - a Barbarian, a Knight, and a Scout. They get ambushed by orcs. The orcs aren't able to get through the Knight's armor, but the Barbarian and Scout get hammered - Barbarian gets dropped to -10 HP but stays up, while the Scout gets dropped to -5 HP and falls unconscious. Nobody thought to bring any healing potions, but once they've bandaged their wounds and the Scout's woken up, they keep going. If they get attacked again, the Scout (who fell unconscious) will be slower and have a poor Dodge but can shoot arrows all day without issue. The Barbarian, on the other hand, because he never fell unconscious during the previous battle risks passing out every time he does, well, anything during this combat - and he stays in that state until he either is healed back above 0 HP or falls unconscious. That seems... off.

[GodBeastX]

This is how we handle it in our games. Combat is defined as strenuous activity. In general, if nothing is going on, we treat people as doing nothing. Walking around and stuff down a hallway is just whatever...

For game effects, I don't see the point of rolling HT every second to see if you pass out when nothing is happening.

Tracking second to second on situations that don't need it seems like overkill and probably not in the spirit of the negative HP.

If you do want to track second to second, then just take the percentage of failure and use that for a linear time. Example:

Roll of 10 or less (50%): 2 seconds an you'll pass out
Roll of 13 or less (84%): 4 seconds and you'll pass out
Roll of 16 or less (98%): 50 seconds and you'll pass out

To summarize my view in logic:

* If knocked below 0 HP in a fight. Roll every second until "Combat Ends".
* If you get knocked below 0 HP from a trap or something, roll only once.


But we might be combatcentric...

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The problem is that, upon awakening, the character explicitly no longer needs to roll every second to stay conscious (at least until they're wounded again). Let's say you've got three characters - a Barbarian, a Knight, and a Scout. They get ambushed by orcs. The orcs aren't able to get through the Knight's armor, but the Barbarian and Scout get hammered - Barbarian gets dropped to -10 HP but stays up, while the Scout gets dropped to -5 HP and falls unconscious. Nobody thought to bring any healing potions, but once they've bandaged their wounds and the Scout's woken up, they keep going. If they get attacked again, the Scout (who fell unconscious) will be slower and have a poor Dodge but can shoot arrows all day without issue. The Barbarian, on the other hand, because he never fell unconscious during the previous battle risks passing out every time he does, well, anything during this combat - and he stays in that state until he either is healed back above 0 HP or falls unconscious. That seems... off.

The Barbarian is unlikely to get to another combat before passing out. Even with HT 16, a minute's worth of activity will likely see the Barbarian collapse as well. And that's assuming he doesn't just decide to collapse as soon as the fight is over, since an hour is a rather long time to do absolutely nothing. So your example isn't exactly likely.

Anyway, being unconscious is the main effect to be worried about. Unconscious people can have all kinds of crazy things happen to them, up to, and including, death because the enemies don't take prisoners. The fact that someone injured more recently is going to fall unconscious despite overall being less injured is less of a concern, since you've already adjusted to the shock (arguably anyone who can pass enough HT checks should also stop needing to make them). Plus, you should be avoiding combat because dropping below -HP and falling unconscious is a right pain.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Varyon

… The Barbarian, on the other hand, because he never fell unconscious during the previous battle risks passing out every time he does, well, anything during this combat - and he stays in that state until he either is healed back above 0 HP or falls unconscious. That seems... off.

I agree with you that a strict reading of the rules does give you this odd result. I see two possible solutions:

1. Once you're out of second-to-second combat time, assume all <=0 HP people fail a role to stay conscious.
2. Allow the people that want to stay conscious by Doing Nothing to do so. They also get HT checks to enjoy the benefits of waking up from unconsciousness when the time comes.

[namada]

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[Varyon]

Combat Maneuvers don't exist outside of "Combat Time." Thus, a character who is outside of Combat Time doesn't have to make HT rolls to stay conscious, because he isn't taking Combat Maneuvers other than Do Nothing. Anything particularly strenuous, like running or quickly climbing a wall or whatever, should probably call for a consciousness check, of course.

But let's assume the intent is that the Barbarian can't do anything, even outside of Combat Time. So, he takes a seat on a stump (which calls for an HT roll, because he had to Change Posture) and decides to rest for a bit while the Knight tends to him and the Scout. After an hour, the Scout wakes up. If they decide to leave, they'll have to put the Barbarian on a stretcher or else he'll pass out on the way. That's right - the guy who managed to pull through and stay conscious is in worse shape than the guy who got knocked out. Similarly, if they were attacked, the Barbarian would need to stay on his stump and hope nobody comes after him, while the Scout can shoot arrows or even mix it up in melee to his heart's content (although he'll be slower). Arguably, the Barbarian might have been able to just give in and pass out once the battle was over so that he could keep moving with the others, but that makes him sound a bit weak.

All that's needed is a mechanism to fix this. Some have been suggested in this thread - mine was to make it automatic after a half hour of rest, there have been others to allow a "stabilizing roll" after an hour or similar. But it is a potential issue, and a mechanism is needed to fix it.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by fartrader

What I'm not getting is the problem in interpretation, because RAW as I read it tells me your scenario there is wrong. In this scenario, the barbarian does not risk unconsciousness when entering a new combat, he's in the same situation as the scout, if he gets wounded again, only then does he need to roll. This is because, "you're in immediate danger of collapse unless you Do Nothing" means that as soon as combat is over (the first combat), you're going unconscious rather quickly because Walking is not Do Nothing. You could roll second-to-second, or you can simply assume it's automatic that characters pass out after combat is over, or do as GodBeastX suggests. It's extremely unlikely you're going to a second combat without having gone unconscious. If a second round of combat does begin, because more enemies show up 20 seconds later, you've just had 20 seconds of "do nothing" maneuvers is all, it's still the same combat.

I can imagine a situation wherein the barbarian literally takes Do Nothing maneuvers for the next hour. After the combat, he simply stays down and rests—he doesn't walk around or even stand. He lays there (awake) being watched over by the knight, just like the unconscious scout.

Originally Posted by fartrader

What I do is simply assume the character stays conscious, and does nothing until first aid is applied and once that's done, the character is stabilized. Once stabilized, you're in the same situation as the scout, even if you technically never went unconscious. If first aid is not forthcoming, and the player wishes to push it, and try to stay conscious, we'll do the second-by-second roll until they ultimately fail. The only characters that actually go unconscious are those that fail the roll during combat, and they wake up when first aid is applied and they are stabilized as well.

Here we disagree. Unless the First Aid puts you back into HP>0, you are still in "immediate danger of collapse". Being stabilized by First Aid doesn't change this by RAW.

Originally Posted by fartrader

The wording of RAW may be improved, but the intent is crystal clear to me (what I'm doing in the paragraph above), so unless someone officially says otherwise, them are the rules.

I say otherwise, though I'm in no way official. I'm curious what other people think, especially official people, too.

Originally Posted by fartrader

To take your example further into examining post-trauma, immediately after combat, what's going to happen is that since the rogue is unconscious and the barbarian is in danger of collapse, the barbarian will do nothing. The knight will bandage both to stop the bleeding. Then the knight will apply first aid to treat shock (B424), which takes 30 minutes per person treated. Then, since it's been an hour, the rogue gets a roll to awaken, but since he's been stabilized, it's not really necessary and he wakes up.

Again, all First Aid does is stop further bleeding and give you back some HP. If after being First Aided you're still at <=0 HP, then you still need to roll to "act normally", which you can start trying to do an hour after you were wounded. That is RAW, as far as I understand it. (If I'm wrong, please correct me and vindicate fartrader.)

Originally Posted by fartrader

Nobody makes rolls to remain conscious anymore and they can limp back home or whatever they like, acting normally (half move/dodge maybe), that is - taking combat maneuvers if necessary without the need to roll to stay conscious.

Agreed. But to be clear, getting First Aided in and of itself, doesn't change any of this. Bringing your HP total back above 0 does.

[namada]

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[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by fartrader

…no roll to stay conscious after full-blown First Aid is applied, not bandaging).

fartrader, you've convinced me. I stand corrected.