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Old 02-07-2019, 10:05 PM   #11
GWJ
 
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The RAW way to handle low wealth is to just say, as GM, that you aren't allowed to take it. The GM is free to ban things.
But I WANT to allow for Low Wealth - just don't know how to prevent cheating like that.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
If one player is fine with sacrificing 10+ points of other abilities to have high Wealth so that the others can all get a "free" 10 points or more from low Wealth . . . that's their call. It seems strange to me, though. When that sort of thing came up in one of my campaigns, the Very Wealthy person was always charging "interest" on any loans and collecting "brokerage fees" on any sales. The net effect was that the richer character remained richer in relative terms, which seemed about right given how points were spent.

(The rich guy was also an alchemist who used his poorer allies as guinea pigs for new potions. "Sure I can give you potions rather than selling them to you. Here you go.")
There is always something like "don't tell him how he should roleplay his character! If he want to be charitative, he can!" or "He has the Sense of Duty, so he should not take money from us for help!". I think it's not right. Other "shareable" abilities are very cheap (usually just being of the specific proffession and choosing specific cheap skill), and have also OTHER ways to use (or being problematic, if disadvantage). Wealth isn't. All you have from this (except of extra cash at the start), is ability to more efficient selling of loot. Other abilities are usually useful for you - but if just one person has Wealth, the rest of them has no need to buying it, it will be unuseful (the richest will be always selling for poorer compadres). With DISadvantage there is much worse. You just have little less money, but you can easily (effortlessly!) evade the main effect - all you need is to give your loot to your not-poor friend, to sell this for you, at normal selling price. And you have free points. It's not like skill or ability useful not only for you (like for example DR (it's protects YOU, not your friends) or healing magic (you can heal, but it's not free for you, and not no-limit). Is there ANY disadvantage in the book, which is more meaningless than low Wealth?
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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But I WANT to allow for Low Wealth - just don't know how to prevent cheating like that.
Having low starting wealth isn't more than a quirk in a game like DF, so if it has no relevance after character creation, being struggling should be about -1 point, poor -2.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:02 AM   #14
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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Having low starting wealth isn't more than a quirk in a game like DF, so if it has no relevance after character creation, being struggling should be about -1 point, poor -2.
It's exactly what I think, sadly. It's too easy to evade, like One Eye in the world you can just buy new eye... Personally, I think it should be special rule for low (at least) wealth, like "You are poor person. If you don't want to be poor - don't take this disadvantage. You must give away part of your income. You pay this for your monastery, temple, family, charity foundation, or just your favourite tavern buying drinks for everyone, etc."

And for balance, for High Wealth "You have head down to business! Whatever is YOUR share from adventure's loot - you are multiplying it by x1.5 (Comfortable), x2 (Wealthy), or x2.5 (Very Wealthy). This is "salary" from your little sneaky business with some guy from docks, hush money, or maybe you just can perfectly evaluate which goods/items are CURRENTLY worth much more on the Black Market, than usual."
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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But I WANT to allow for Low Wealth - just don't know how to prevent cheating like that.
In my game, I don't see it as cheating. And if all the players have low wealth except one, it will bite them sooner or later.

That said, If it is a problem in your game, making it a quirk or enforcing permanent low wealth are both valid solutions.

Although you should then argue the same with most social disads. As long as they don't run you out of town on sight, who care if the merchants or mercenaries won't speak to you ? You just need one character in the party with voice or charisma.
Same with being illiterate, ... and in fact mostly anything unrelated to fighting and maybe survival...
(Even the strongest party minimaxer will want backup healing or damage, for some reason...)
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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It's exactly what I think, sadly. It's too easy to evade, like One Eye in the world you can just buy new eye... Personally, I think it should be special rule for low (at least) wealth . . .
If it's not working at your table, you should revise or remove it. Just remember that the point of disadvantages is, ultimately, to make the game more fun. If you rewrite it so that nobody ever takes it, you've probably gone to far. (I'm not suggesting that your variation would do that.)

Another idea to throw into the mix is that you could treat low wealth like low social status. So the innkeeper at the nice inn won't let the riffraff stay with the wealthy character. Sleeping in the stables (or at the skeevy inn by the docks) might cost some FP or cause occasionally embarrassing bedbug bites on their noses. If the wealthy character decides to start slumming it in the stables with his companions, he develops an unsavory reputation among merchants and they stop giving him the good prices. Similarly, when the duke summons the noble knight (or wizard or whatever) to the castle to discuss an upcoming quest, the rest of the party isn't invited. (The duke sees them as mere hirelings.) The reward structure might even be setup so that the wealthy character receives a reward that, from the duke's perspective, is just for him. He's expected to pay his mercenaries from his profits; the implication being that if the party consisted of more than one wealthy character, the total reward would be higher.

Again—the idea being that things should be fun—I wouldn't overdo this, but my goal would be to remind the poor PCs every game that they have made a social sacrifice. Their characters are lower class and are treated as such by the world around them. This works best, of course, if the players are bought in. If so, lots of challenges and hilarity can ensue. If they spend every game trying to outsmart the system and arguing that they should be able to overcome their dockside accents and whatnot, then it's time to have an OOC discussion and/or have them buy off the disadvantage.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:26 AM   #17
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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There is always something like "don't tell him how he should roleplay his character! If he want to be charitative, he can!" or "He has the Sense of Duty, so he should not take money from us for help!".
Sure, but that's his choice. If this is happening he's paying a bunch of points for an ability that isn't benefiting him more than it is the players who didn't pay for it. He probably is getting something in exchange, in terms of abilities the other PCs paid for but are benefiting him you just aren't seeing it because it isn't so easily measured.

But really low wealth is only "meaningless" for the other players *because* he opts to be charitable. It's not really any different than say Rapid Healing is "meaningless" because the party includes a cleric who always generously heals you up before it would matter.

And you don't mind the cleric doesn't charge them a fee for that do you? Spells cast by other party members are one of the more obvious cases of you benefiting from somebody else's points after all.
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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Another idea to throw into the mix is that you could treat low wealth like low social status.
I like this. Man, why didn't I come up with this?

Granted, it's not been an issue in my games, my Players have treated low Wealth like the pox that is (starting equipment is important to them).
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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I like this. Man, why didn't I come up with this?
Thanks!

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Granted, it's not been an issue in my games, my Players have treated low Wealth like the pox that is (starting equipment is important to them).
Yeah, this hasn't come up for me yet either. None of my PCs have voluntarily lowered their wealth.

The importance of starting equipment can, of course, be emphasized by traditionally starting every new DF campaign with a doozy of an adventure that provides lots of danger and no liquid loot. Heh.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Low Wealth is free points

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The importance of starting equipment can, of course, be emphasized by traditionally starting every new DF campaign with a doozy of an adventure that provides lots of danger and no liquid loot. Heh.
That just encourages buying Poor (-15) and spending 5 points on Extra Money, giving a total starting value of $2,700. Of course, you can make Extra Money scale with wealth level (RAW it doesn't), but that becomes problematic for high wealth levels.
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