DR (Tough Skin... No Signature?)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

"It's mispriced" is a different argument to "it shouldn't be applied".

It's probably an outright different advantage. Consider two characters:

Character A has cyberarm with a gun hidden in the arm. When he fires the gun, it's obvious that he's firing the gun.
Character B has a cyberarm with an obvious gun. However, the gun itself is silenced.

In one case, it's not obvious that a character has a specific ability. In the other, it's not obvious that a character is using a specific ability. I would argue that low signature hides the use of an ability, not the presence of the ability, and thus for defensive abilities what it means is that it's not obvious that the character was not affected by whatever the defense works against. For example, if you shoot Superman the bullet will ping off him and ricochet somewhere, but you do have the occasional characters who seem to be injured but don't actually get stopped.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'm really not a believer in changing what ability-building modifiers mean by genre.

I vigorously concur. You pay for what you get.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem is that this really opens up a can of worms -- if my character is strong but not obviously muscular am I required to take Low/No Signature on my ST -- and in practice "has hidden abilities", while useful, is not 20% enhancement level useful.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

"It's mispriced" is a different argument to "it shouldn't be applied".

Pretty much this. It's not a can of worms - it's quite a apparent in how GURPS works. Advantages (and attributes are lumped in there) can already be discerned. As for what's visible and what isn't, the way I've been handling it is how are you abilities defined? Thus it's a special effect or built in for some powers (e.g., Clairsentience or Telekinesis), while others require an enhancement (e.g., DR or an Innate Attack). What powers should be apparent and what shouldn't is a matter of theme in most cases. It makes skills like Hidden Lore, Weird Science, etc. actually useful to take - knowing what your enemey can do is a powerful tool in your toolbox.

And all of this has me thinking. What time is is? It's Bloggering time..

[whswhs]

It seems to me that there's a difference between "I have ability X, and it's visible" and "I have an anatomical structure that grants me ability X, and it's visible."

Suppose, for example, we're talking about the ability to fly. One super gets it by having wings; those wings are visible. Another gets it by having flame powers and being able to propel themselves like a rocket; their exhaust is visible. A third just concentrates and rises into the air.

But even so, the fact remains that all three of them are visibly flying! In fact, I'm not sure you would ever take the ability to fly with No Signature; it would seem to imply that you had the ability to fly but no one would see that you were off the ground.

So say that you have enough DR to stop bullets. If someone shoots you, and the bullet bounces, or stops dead and falls to the ground/floor, your DR is visible. Someone held a gun to your torso and pulled the trigger, and you weren't hurt; that's visible too. What would it mean for the damage from a bullet being reduced a lot to be unnoticeable?

Having armor plate, or a glowing force field, means that the physical basis for your DR is visible; but I don't think that's the same thing.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

What would it mean for the damage from a bullet being reduced a lot to be unnoticeable?

Standard horror movie 'I keep shooting it, and it bleeds and stuff flies off, but it still keeps coming'.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Standard horror movie 'I keep shooting it, and it bleeds and stuff flies off, but it still keeps coming'.

I'd say that that's an Injury Tolerance or Supernatural Durability situation rather than DR...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd say that that's an Injury Tolerance or Supernatural Durability situation rather than DR...

Why? You should just whatever mechanics fit the chosen effect; if hitting it harder works but simply piling up small hits doesn't, it's not injury tolerance or SD, it's DR.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It seems to me that there's a difference between "I have ability X, and it's visible" and "I have an anatomical structure that grants me ability X, and it's visible."

Suppose, for example, we're talking about the ability to fly. One super gets it by having wings; those wings are visible. Another gets it by having flame powers and being able to propel themselves like a rocket; their exhaust is visible. A third just concentrates and rises into the air.

But even so, the fact remains that all three of them are visibly flying! In fact, I'm not sure you would ever take the ability to fly with No Signature; it would seem to imply that you had the ability to fly but no one would see that you were off the ground..

Well no. Remember, by default flight isn't just visible. It's also audible. You would get No Signature to stop making noise when you fly.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why? You should just whatever mechanics fit the chosen effect; if hitting it harder works but simply piling up small hits doesn't, it's not injury tolerance or SD, it's DR.

If it's DR, you shouldn't be able to shoot through it, and if you can't shoot through it where is stuff flying off?

SD actually does have a specific relationship with 'hitting it harder'...

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Well no. Remember, by default flight isn't just visible. It's also audible. You would get No Signature to stop making noise when you fly.

Though flying is probably not very loud. It's hard to tell, since it never bothered to specify or explain where the sound is supposed to come from for unmodified flight.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why? You should just whatever mechanics fit the chosen effect; if hitting it harder works but simply piling up small hits doesn't, it's not injury tolerance or SD, it's DR.

Yup. +1234