[DF] How much do liches in dungeons know about the PCs?

b-dog · 11-30-2016, 04:54 PM

A lich in a dungeon should have surveillance systems in his dungeon to keep him informed of any possibile threat to him. So here is my question, how active should a lich be in a dungeon delve? If you think about the lich is doing nothing in the dungeon so he likely has all the time he needs to summon demon, create undead and horrible monsters and set up traps and ambushes. From a realismish standpointo the lich does not need to sleep or get tired, he has no mortal needs and he likely has tons of experience fighting against monsters. So once he is alerted to the PCs presence doesn't he start to do everything in his power to kill off the intruders? Wouldn't he warn all the other monsters in his dungeon level to attack? He should be able to tell what the PCs professions are through s crying and other alarms so he would explot the weaknesses of the party. So as a dungeon master how do you run a lich? Thanks.

Ulzgoroth · 11-30-2016, 05:02 PM

...I want to note that 'lichen' means something, and it isn't the plural of 'lich'.

Lichen, in most cases, can't really be said to know anything at all...

Refplace · 11-30-2016, 05:06 PM

Odds are he is researching or resting more than just hanging around doing nothing.
As for what that depends on the magic system and monsters in play.
A few minor enchantments for alarms would be reasonable.
Sentries and mobs that wont fight to the death but will run to alert others are reasonable.
Mechancial traps and alarms are also possible.
An interactive dungeon is IMHO far more interesting and enjoyable than one where everyone passively waits for delvers to kick in the door to thier room.

PK · 11-30-2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...I want to note that 'lichen' means something, and it isn't the plural of 'lich'.

Lichen, in most cases, can't really be said to know anything at all...

I just fixed the typo. Carry on!

Buzzardo · 11-30-2016, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...I want to note that 'lichen' means something, and it isn't the plural of 'lich'.

Lichen, in most cases, can't really be said to know anything at all...

On the other hand, lichen growing into liches would make for an interesting twist. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace

where everyone passively waits for delvers to kick in the door to thier room.

Zactly.

When I think "dungeon," I think of the old "mobs in rooms waiting for the party to attack" idea. That's nonsense, and I run them anyway, because they're easy and still fun. :)

When I think "lair," I think of a boss mob's home. In this case, it's a lich. I expect a lich's lair to have low-level mobs around the periphery. Those minions then raise the alarm if anything happens and serve as a way for the lich to see what's going on by somehow using a minion's senses. Closer to the center (probably next to the lich's throne room or laboratory) is a strike team of much stronger mobs that will go take care of whatever threat has invaded the lair. The lich will get involved only if its contribution can make the difference in winning and if his danger is nil or minimal. If the risk is much at all, he'll use his escape portal and move along to the first of his alternate locations.

The first encounter with a lich is rarely the last encounter with that lich.

Anthony · 11-30-2016, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog

A lich in a dungeon should have surveillance systems in his dungeon to keep him informed of any possibile threat to him. So here is my question, how active should a lich be in a dungeon delve?

Depends on how you want the dungeon to work. The typical lich is probably not actually sitting there waiting for adventurers to attack, he's sleeping or engaged in his own work, so until the adventurers do something that draws his attention he's not going to be involved at all.

Varyon · 11-30-2016, 07:16 PM

The first thing to do is answer a few questions. Why is the lich in the dungeon - is it his home, has he fled there to escape some other heroes, does it contain a gateway to a reality-destroying monster he hopes to twist to his own ends? If it's his home, he probably has loyal monsters, some traps, and maybe some sort of magical surveillance system set up in it. If it's a temporary retreat, he might have some hastily made traps and alarms. If he is himself delving it for some purpose, he may be devoting all of his efforts to reaching his goal, with little thought spared for those chasing him. How much of a threat does he perceive the PC's to be? If he thinks they're a bunch of peons, he probably isn't going to pay attention to them unless - and until - they start causing some serious problems. If he thinks they're an unstoppable force, he's probably throwing up everything he can to delay them until he can make good on an escape. How will he gather intel on the party? He could have scouts/spies/guards relaying information, spying on them with a crystal ball, or bringing the spirits of the monsters slain and extracting the information from them.

Once you know all of that, you'll have an idea of how to handle the lich. A lich in his home conducting magic research (creating flying man-eating apes, say), who has a crystal ball attuned to several key locations in his lair and thinks the PC's are a formidable but not insurmountable force is quite different from one trying to plunder a tomb for a magical artifact, who is reliant on a few undead scouts watching his rear and feels the PC's are insignificant gnats.

dripton · 11-30-2016, 07:36 PM

Depends on the lich.

I think of liches as having really high IQ, lots of spells, and lots of mental skills. So, if they're worried about attacks and do a good job keeping track of what's trying to invade their lair (via allies and/or magic), then they probably know a whole lot about the PCs. Attacking a really powerful opponent, that's paying attention, on its home turf, sounds like a recipe for a TPK. (See the classic adventure Tomb of Horrors if that's what you're into. Spoiler: everyone dies.)

But if they're taken by surprise, without advance warning (Overconfident lich? Really clever PCs?), they probably only know what they see, and then what they can guess based on that.

For example, the PCs in my DF game include a Dwarven Knight (heavy armor, axe), an Elf Wizard (light armor, staff), a Human Cleric (medium armor, flail, obvious holy symbol), and a Human Brute (medium armor, sword). All of them look pretty much like what they are. An IQ19 lich should be able to guess fighter, wizard, cleric, fighter. And probably know to target the 2 fighters (possibly crappy Will) with mind control spells, then go poke holes through the squishy mage and the "ha-ha you're in my zone of low sanctity your powers are useless here" cleric.

If the PCs can't counter that, they're not badass enough to defeat a lich.

VariousRen · 11-30-2016, 09:58 PM

A trope of D&D and DF is that very smart enemies always seem to be suicidally insane. Despite killing crops for miles around (or whatever bad thing brought you to them) and having enough magical loot to attract an entire flight of dragons, they spend all their time studying magical theory instead of building the most impenetrable magical fortress of all time. Somehow becoming immortal makes a wizard want to get to basic magical research _right now_, defenses can wait a few decades.

Realistically (if you can apply that to a lich) a non-insane, immortal, hyper-magical person should have no problems getting almost perfect information on the enemies coming for them. They would be able to estimate the threat and be long gone before the party gets two steps through the front door to the dungeon. If a lich got wind of a potential plot against them they wouldn't even have much trouble planting fake evidence by way of illusion magic and faking magical auras. By definition a lich is one of the most powerful wizards in existence, so if they're paying attention to you you're completely out magic'd.

Boomerang · 11-30-2016, 11:57 PM

For a Lich lair I would go with a Tomb of Horrors style dungeon. Difficult to find the correct way through, hardly any monsters but full of really deadly traps. The PDF version of the original module is still available to download and conversion to GURPS would be really easy.

A couple of years ago we played the reverse dungeon part of the Way of the Wicked adventure path. It is really difficult to keep adventurers out of your dungeon, it's hard to find minions that can be relied upon and hard to create effective surveillance systems. The best tactic turned out to be to personally set up an ambush in the area where we spent the most time, which in that game was at the site of the evil ritual we were conducting that the good guys wanted to stop. The finale was a total cliche, a big battle between good and evil in the final room, but it was a cliche that made sense in game.

11-30-2016, 04:54 PM	#1
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	[DF] How much do liches in dungeons know about the PCs? A lich in a dungeon should have surveillance systems in his dungeon to keep him informed of any possibile threat to him. So here is my question, how active should a lich be in a dungeon delve? If you think about the lich is doing nothing in the dungeon so he likely has all the time he needs to summon demon, create undead and horrible monsters and set up traps and ambushes. From a realismish standpointo the lich does not need to sleep or get tired, he has no mortal needs and he likely has tons of experience fighting against monsters. So once he is alerted to the PCs presence doesn't he start to do everything in his power to kill off the intruders? Wouldn't he warn all the other monsters in his dungeon level to attack? He should be able to tell what the PCs professions are through s crying and other alarms so he would explot the weaknesses of the party. So as a dungeon master how do you run a lich? Thanks.

11-30-2016, 05:02 PM	#2
Ulzgoroth Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: [DF] How much do lichen in dungeons know about the PCs? ...I want to note that 'lichen' means something, and it isn't the plural of 'lich'. Lichen, in most cases, can't really be said to know anything at all... __________________ I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.

11-30-2016, 05:06 PM	#3
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: [DF] How much do lichen in dungeons know about the PCs? Odds are he is researching or resting more than just hanging around doing nothing. As for what that depends on the magic system and monsters in play. A few minor enchantments for alarms would be reasonable. Sentries and mobs that wont fight to the death but will run to alert others are reasonable. Mechancial traps and alarms are also possible. An interactive dungeon is IMHO far more interesting and enjoyable than one where everyone passively waits for delvers to kick in the door to thier room. __________________ My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more! My GURPS fan contribution and blog: REFPLace GURPS Landing Page My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items) My GURPS Wiki entries

11-30-2016, 07:16 PM	#7
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: [DF] How much do liches in dungeons know about the PCs? The first thing to do is answer a few questions. Why is the lich in the dungeon - is it his home, has he fled there to escape some other heroes, does it contain a gateway to a reality-destroying monster he hopes to twist to his own ends? If it's his home, he probably has loyal monsters, some traps, and maybe some sort of magical surveillance system set up in it. If it's a temporary retreat, he might have some hastily made traps and alarms. If he is himself delving it for some purpose, he may be devoting all of his efforts to reaching his goal, with little thought spared for those chasing him. How much of a threat does he perceive the PC's to be? If he thinks they're a bunch of peons, he probably isn't going to pay attention to them unless - and until - they start causing some serious problems. If he thinks they're an unstoppable force, he's probably throwing up everything he can to delay them until he can make good on an escape. How will he gather intel on the party? He could have scouts/spies/guards relaying information, spying on them with a crystal ball, or bringing the spirits of the monsters slain and extracting the information from them. Once you know all of that, you'll have an idea of how to handle the lich. A lich in his home conducting magic research (creating flying man-eating apes, say), who has a crystal ball attuned to several key locations in his lair and thinks the PC's are a formidable but not insurmountable force is quite different from one trying to plunder a tomb for a magical artifact, who is reliant on a few undead scouts watching his rear and feels the PC's are insignificant gnats.

11-30-2016, 07:36 PM	#8
dripton Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Northern Virginia, USA	Re: [DF] How much do liches in dungeons know about the PCs? Depends on the lich. I think of liches as having really high IQ, lots of spells, and lots of mental skills. So, if they're worried about attacks and do a good job keeping track of what's trying to invade their lair (via allies and/or magic), then they probably know a whole lot about the PCs. Attacking a really powerful opponent, that's paying attention, on its home turf, sounds like a recipe for a TPK. (See the classic adventure Tomb of Horrors if that's what you're into. Spoiler: everyone dies.) But if they're taken by surprise, without advance warning (Overconfident lich? Really clever PCs?), they probably only know what they see, and then what they can guess based on that. For example, the PCs in my DF game include a Dwarven Knight (heavy armor, axe), an Elf Wizard (light armor, staff), a Human Cleric (medium armor, flail, obvious holy symbol), and a Human Brute (medium armor, sword). All of them look pretty much like what they are. An IQ19 lich should be able to guess fighter, wizard, cleric, fighter. And probably know to target the 2 fighters (possibly crappy Will) with mind control spells, then go poke holes through the squishy mage and the "ha-ha you're in my zone of low sanctity your powers are useless here" cleric. If the PCs can't counter that, they're not badass enough to defeat a lich.

11-30-2016, 09:58 PM	#9
VariousRen Join Date: Apr 2015	Re: [DF] How much do liches in dungeons know about the PCs? A trope of D&D and DF is that very smart enemies always seem to be suicidally insane. Despite killing crops for miles around (or whatever bad thing brought you to them) and having enough magical loot to attract an entire flight of dragons, they spend all their time studying magical theory instead of building the most impenetrable magical fortress of all time. Somehow becoming immortal makes a wizard want to get to basic magical research _right now_, defenses can wait a few decades. Realistically (if you can apply that to a lich) a non-insane, immortal, hyper-magical person should have no problems getting almost perfect information on the enemies coming for them. They would be able to estimate the threat and be long gone before the party gets two steps through the front door to the dungeon. If a lich got wind of a potential plot against them they wouldn't even have much trouble planting fake evidence by way of illusion magic and faking magical auras. By definition a lich is one of the most powerful wizards in existence, so if they're paying attention to you you're completely out magic'd. __________________ I run a low fantasy GURPS game: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdo...YLkfnhr3vYXpFg World details on Obsidian Portal: https://the-fall-of-brekhan.obsidian...ikis/main-page

11-30-2016, 11:57 PM	#10
Boomerang Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Melbourne, Australia (also known as zone Brisbane)	Re: [DF] How much do liches in dungeons know about the PCs? For a Lich lair I would go with a Tomb of Horrors style dungeon. Difficult to find the correct way through, hardly any monsters but full of really deadly traps. The PDF version of the original module is still available to download and conversion to GURPS would be really easy. A couple of years ago we played the reverse dungeon part of the Way of the Wicked adventure path. It is really difficult to keep adventurers out of your dungeon, it's hard to find minions that can be relied upon and hard to create effective surveillance systems. The best tactic turned out to be to personally set up an ambush in the area where we spent the most time, which in that game was at the site of the evil ritual we were conducting that the good guys wanted to stop. The finale was a total cliche, a big battle between good and evil in the final room, but it was a cliche that made sense in game.