Cost of HT.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

You'd have to be careful what any fix did to IQ!, because the ability to represent a character who is brainy but neither perceptive nor mentally tough is important.

Problems like that are usually indications that the effects shouldn't be packaged together in the first place.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Not

You can't? That sounds like a challenge!

I routinely build very playable character with -70 to -100 worth of Disadvantages without taking reduaced stats.

My good align clerics have -50 worth of Disadvantages tied up into his Pact the power abilities before we get into personalising disadvantages.

[Not]

Challenge accepted!

I think it could be done, but it probably requires a mix of social and physical handicaps. Perhaps you're a Quasimodo-type.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I'd make a 5th attribute: "Instinct" which would include Perception and Willpower. And set IQ at [20/level].

IQ! at 20/level at least lets 10 and 15 points Talents something other than poor choices for purely mental skills.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

There's also the fact that many of us don't consider normal stats plus high parts of stats to be disadvantages conceptually or plausibly.

Someone with IQ! 14 has no disadvantages in story or reality. He's just super smart without being super perceptive or willful.

Or that I can rarely take more than -40 or so without ending up with an unplayable mess.

I'm not saying that normal stats plus high parts of stats are disadvantages conceptually. In fact, I said that I'd only do something like that on a character that, conceptually, doesn't have any flaws.

As far as "plausibly" goes, I'm with Agemegos: I can imagine an intelligent character who's not particularly perceptive or resolute, and all the permutations thereof. Heck, what does Hard to Kill even mean, and why does it correlate with how much weight I can lift?

Unplayable? How about a older gentleman with Bad Back [-15], Bad Sight (Mitigator: Glasses) [-10] and a Sense of Duty (Nation) [-10] who's Chummy [-5], Selfish [-5] and Sleepwalks [-5]? He's genuinely a well-intentioned man, but he considers himself to be excellent company and unconsciously expects people to defer to his age, experience and "altruism." Maybe he's a veteran, and drops Sleepwalks for Wounded [-5].

How about a naive, driven young woman with ST -1 [-10], Curious [-5], Gullibility (15-) [-5], Klutz [-5], Obsession (Earn Recognition in Scientific Community) [-5], Pacifism (Reluctant Killer) [-5], Shyness [-5], Truthfulness [-5], and Workaholic [-5]? I've basically just written down the disad list for Hermione Granger, or Simmons from Agents of SHIELD, or loads of other characters that don't bring "unplayable" immediately to mind.

[Flyndaran]

Those examples still seem difficult to play and highly annoying for fellow gamers. Yet those still don't approach the 50% for more than 110 point characters which is a somewhat low powered game.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

IQ! at 20/level at least lets 10 and 15 points Talents something other than poor choices for purely mental skills.

That's a very poorly balanced trade off. It's like throwing out the baby so you can drink the bath water. Just get rid of 10 and 15 pt Talents. Don't screw up the rest of the system so they don't look as ill-conceived.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

That's a very poorly balanced trade off. It's like throwing out the baby so you can drink the bath water. Just get rid of 10 and 15 pt Talents. Don't screw up the rest of the system so they don't look as ill-conceived.

Reducing their price makes them over powered.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Reducing their price makes them over powered.

It's probably more a problem that Skills are too expensive compared to Attributes. This becomes extra-obvious for Per-based skills, but is true for other skills too. DX is probably the only exception, maybe. (While Basic Speed is probably overpriced.)

I feel that hypothetical 5e if it ever comes, should have
ST as-is, DX! as a standalone at [15] or so, IQ! as a standalone at [15], Per and Will at something like [5-8], HT probably at [10-15] (and includes FP), Basic Speed as a standalone attribute that is not included in DX/HT. And skills might benefit from going from a [+1, +1, +2, +4, +4...] progression to a [+1, +1, +2, +3, +3...] progression.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by McAllister

How about a naive, driven young woman with ST -1 [-10], Curious [-5], Gullibility (15-) [-5], Klutz [-5], Obsession (Earn Recognition in Scientific Community) [-5], Pacifism (Reluctant Killer) [-5], Shyness [-5], Truthfulness [-5], and Workaholic [-5]? I've basically just written down the disad list for Hermione Granger, or Simmons from Agents of SHIELD, or loads of other characters that don't bring "unplayable" immediately to mind.

That's eight 5-point disads. To my mind, that represents a very high risk of the player overlooking some of them most of the time (even without meaning to), combined with the GM not catching it when it happens. Eight disads are a lot to keep track of, and the smallness of each one makes them more likely to get overlooked by both GM and player.

And note those are 8 distinct disads, all of them having unique effects, rather than being simply a modifier to a more general stat (so that simulation happens automatically). Furthermore, 7/8 of them are mental disads.

I don't like it.