Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-25-2010, 05:52 AM   #91
jeff_wilson
Computer Scientist
 
jeff_wilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default Re: [Powers] What is the point in buying Create (Destruction Only) instead of Create

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
The ability to extinguish (destroy) fire can be useful but only if you're going to be around fires. Obviously this lends to using fire-based weaponry where you can mitigate your own collateral damage. Alternatively, you'll make an impressive firefighter. If you don't have fire-based attacks, don't have fire using opponent, and aren't seeking fires out (like a firefighter) you'll have to work to make this ability useful.
In this case, that is the player's decision to deliberately make suboptimal choices. Create/Destroy/Transmute are explicitly priced on the breadth of substances they work with, not on their commonality. If you pick the fairly specific substance of "fire" to Destroy and then complain because open fires aren't that common despite fire-lighting being one of the most widely used technologies in the real and imaginary worlds, you don't want to buy fire powers at 80% off, you don't want to buy Area Effect or other enhancements that might let you Destroy enclosed fires, you don't want to get points back for having a fire-using Enemy, and you don't want to be a fireman or work with firefighters, then maybe GURPS is not the game for you.
__________________
.
Reposed playtest leader.

The Campaigns of William Stoddard
jeff_wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 10:11 AM   #92
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [Powers] What is the point in buying Create (Destruction Only) instead of Create

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_wilson
In this case, that is the player's decision to deliberately make suboptimal choices. Create/Destroy/Transmute are explicitly priced on the breadth of substances they work with, not on their commonality. If you pick the fairly specific substance of "fire" to Destroy and then complain because open fires aren't that common despite fire-lighting being one of the most widely used technologies in the real and imaginary worlds, you don't want to buy fire powers at 80% off, you don't want to buy Area Effect or other enhancements that might let you Destroy enclosed fires, you don't want to get points back for having a fire-using Enemy, and you don't want to be a fireman or work with firefighters, then maybe GURPS is not the game for you.
*nods* I think most of us would agree that Destruction is inefficient, but the argument about the need for the element to be present in order for it to be destroyed just looks like smoke to me.
Not another shrubbery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 01:03 PM   #93
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: [Powers] What is the point in buying Create (Destruction Only) instead of Create

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
Okay, then. If there's equal utility, then there's no loss of utility to be compensated.
Giving you the ability to create new target that you can target isn't the same as letting you target anyone you want. You're suggesting that if a link is uncomplimentary (and in this case opposite effects) that somehow justifies the unlinked cost for one of the abilities?

To counter example let's say you have an my innate attack that only works on turtles. How would linking the ability to summon turtles that you could suddenly attack with your innate attack help you? Presumably if I *want* to summon turtles they are going to be on my side or at least usable to my advantage. Likewise the ability to attack turtles isn't going to help me target most opponents aside from some teenage mutants. Consequently, I would suggest neither link really improves the ability. You've gone one step further and suggested that whatever cost you pay for summoning turtles or the innate attack both are completely fair because they don't work well together.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 01:13 PM   #94
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: [Powers] What is the point in buying Create (Destruction Only) instead of Create

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
In this case, that is the player's decision to deliberately make suboptimal choices. Create/Destroy/Transmute are explicitly priced on the breadth of substances they work with, not on their commonality. If you pick the fairly specific substance of "fire" to Destroy and then complain because open fires aren't that common despite fire-lighting being one of the most widely used technologies in the real and imaginary worlds, you don't want to buy fire powers at 80% off, you don't want to buy Area Effect or other enhancements that might let you Destroy enclosed fires, you don't want to get points back for having a fire-using Enemy, and you don't want to be a fireman or work with firefighters, then maybe GURPS is not the game for you.
While it's impractical to make all the choices perfectly equal, I'd put forth that if you don't care about point balance GURPS isn't the game for you either. Of course, if you're willing to concede that the power is suboptimal for the cost, we really don't have much disagreement either.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 03:15 PM   #95
Agent
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default Re: [Powers] What is the point in buying Create (Destruction Only) instead of Create

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurps Fan View Post
So, according to Kromm, my destruction ability that actually is Create (Solid; Transmutation, Solid to Nothingness, +35%; Transmutation Only, -100%) costs 14 points per level. Compare it with Create (Solid; Transmutation, Solid to Gas, +50%; Transmutation Only, -100%) [20/level], which can make any desired kind of gas, anything from normal, innocuous air to nasty substances like sarin or metastable helium. I think it's a fair price.
Why not Create (Solid; Destruction +35%; Destruction Only, -100%)? The Transmutation bit seems mostly flavor, unless you really want to scale the Accessibility limitation for 'lesser states', or find it unattractive to strip Destruction of it's inferior 2 fatigue cost and inanimate restriction...

Which is understandable, but I ask the question anyway to see if I'm missing something.
__________________
Mythweavers PbP
Agent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 01:36 AM   #96
Gurps Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Japan
Default Re: [Powers] What is the point in buying Create (Destruction Only) instead of Create

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent View Post
Why not Create (Solid; Destruction +35%; Destruction Only, -100%)? The Transmutation bit seems mostly flavor, unless you really want to scale the Accessibility limitation for 'lesser states', or find it unattractive to strip Destruction of it's inferior 2 fatigue cost and inanimate restriction...

Which is understandable, but I ask the question anyway to see if I'm missing something.
What's in my mind is, yes, the two reasons you pointed out. According to Kromm,
  • Transmutation, Large Category to Specific Item costs +35%,
  • Transmutation, Medium Category to Specific Item costs +40%,
  • Transmutation, Small Category to Specific Item costs +45%,
  • And Transmutation, Specific Item to Specific Item costs +50% (the RAW value),
and I want to use these value for my Destruction. Also, I don't like the canonical FP cost (2 FP) of Destruction; I think that it should cost 1 FP just like Transmutation. Of course, we can safely rename what I've been calling Transmutation, Something to Nothingness to "Destruction".
  • On Create (Large Category), Destruction is a +35% enhancement.
  • On Create (Medium Category), Destruction is a +40% enhancement.
  • On Create (Small Category), Destruction is a +45% enhancement.
  • On Create (Specific Item), Destruction is a +50% enhancement.
  • Destruction Only is a -100% limitation.
Therefore, abilities of vanishing (but not creating) any solid, any metal, any ferrous metal, and iron only will cost 14 points/level, 8 points/level, 4.5 points/level, and 2.5 points/level, respectively.
__________________
Gurps Fan,
a rules lawyer from the mysterious country of ninja, samurai, and magical girls,
the inventor of M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.
Gurps Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 11:33 PM   #97
jeff_wilson
Computer Scientist
 
jeff_wilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default Re: [Powers] What is the point in buying Create (Destruction Only) instead of Create

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
While it's impractical to make all the choices perfectly equal, I'd put forth that if you don't care about point balance GURPS isn't the game for you either. Of course, if you're willing to concede that the power is suboptimal for the cost, we really don't have much disagreement either.
I think my decade of leading playtests more than establishes my commitment to point balance.

As for Destroy's suboptimality I will agree that in many cases it is, particularly as the domain in question gets more narrow, but that is not to say that the majority of possible instances or the majority of attested encounters are that way. The original Create Air/Destroy Air situation that we discussed seems the opposite to me; generally something extraordinary has to happen before Create Air is more useful than a fan or a leaf blower, but Destroy Air is useful for making extraordinary situations to begin with. Using Kromm's suggestion to have Destroy X make 10-second zones of X-lessness totally puts it on top from my perspective.
__________________
.
Reposed playtest leader.

The Campaigns of William Stoddard
jeff_wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
create, creation pool

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.