(RPM) Creation: Permanent vs. Duration

[ronalmb]

I've questions regarding the Create effect and RPM

An example, Create Earth from GURPS magic. Creates an amount of earth. The effect is instant and permanent. Would an RPM version of Create Earth also be instant and permanent or would it be temporary with a duration? If it could be either, temporary stuff seems like it would be more expensive as it includes a duration modifier... I'm thinking I am misunderstanding something critical.

Has anyone else addressed the creation of permanent versus temporary materials with RPM and have advice or suggestions to share?

Thanks much!

[Langy]

Originally Posted by ronalmb

I've questions regarding the Create effect and RPM

An example, Create Earth from GURPS magic. Creates an amount of earth. The effect is instant and permanent. Would an RPM version of Create Earth also be instant and permanent or would it be temporary with a duration? If it could be either, temporary stuff seems like it would be more expensive as it includes a duration modifier... I'm thinking I am misunderstanding something critical.

Has anyone else addressed the creation of permanent versus temporary materials with RPM and have advice or suggestions to share?

Thanks much!

An RPM version of Create Earth is always temporary. RPM does not do permanent effects.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by Langy

An RPM version of Create Earth is always temporary. RPM does not do permanent effects.

Which begs the question, Why? There are some odd arbitrary limitations on RPM, and the permanence bit is #1. Why does it take the RPM mage an infinite amount of energy to make a pile of dirt that lasts forever (hasta gnab gib) and a regular mage doesn't break a sweat? It makes it very difficult to have RPM in a setting with Magic as Powers or ðe Olde Schoole Magic.

The Pyramid articles tell me how to combine RPM with Ley Lines, Sacred Architecture and Demonic Corruption, but why not have the variety that does permanent stuff. The answer is always "Use Metatronic Generators", which is not really an answer. Or maybe if the PC spends 200hrs gathering energy he can make a permanent pile of dirt with 1CP?

I'd very much like RPM that uses FP, powerstones and casting spells on the fly (since a very committed fan went to the trouble of converting all the spells in Magic) and RPM enchantment that doesn't involve trigger spells and conditional limits. Ley lines, not so much. Actually, hmm - I have some money coming in, and Ghostdancer writes on donation....

[Refplace]

Permanet creation can be simulated.
Move earth from there to here is one way.
Spend points to simulate enchantment is another.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by ronalmb

An example, Create Earth from GURPS magic. Creates an amount of earth. The effect is instant and permanent. Would an RPM version of Create Earth also be instant and permanent or would it be temporary with a duration? If it could be either, temporary stuff seems like it would be more expensive as it includes a duration modifier... I'm thinking I am misunderstanding something critical.

Couple of options:

• Have a high Duration, in the hundreds of years at least.
• Buy a variant Duration, see p. 242 of GURPS Thaumatology and p. 18 of GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic. "Permanent until dispelled" is a variant Duration worth +18 energy.
• As a GM, rule that some spells may be made permanent and then charge a cost.

Originally Posted by ronalmb

Has anyone else addressed the creation of permanent versus temporary materials with RPM and have advice or suggestions to share?

I've used it sparingly in my campaigns. I like not having to worry about understanding how Create Metal hasn't killed the economy. When used there I charge character points. Use the rules for permanent effects from GURPS Power-Ups 5: Impulse Buys (p. 13-15) and charge 1 character point per 25 energy the ritual costs or whatever guideline the spell is closest too that coss the most. For example, if you cast a spell that costs 300 energy to conjure a portal to another world it would cost 12 points (300/25), not 10 points (it's like the Jumper advantage)

[ronalmb]

What I've been doing that hasn't caused any problems yet, is to allow magical spells as a way for characters to spend their CP on Advantages I would not normally allow them to acquire during gameplay (example, I would not normally allow a character to acquire a physical trait such as Darkvision or Doesn't Breathe). I charge the spell cost +50 Energy and if the spell is succesfully perform, the character can purchase the ability. If the character chooses not to spend those points, the spell simply expires after a day (it didn't "take").

Seems to be working, as far as that goes.

The difficulties with other types of permanent effects are pretty much as has been observed -- the danger of ruined economies, acquiring wealth unearned, etc can derail the campaign easily.

I wonder how a casting skill penalty based upon "value" (material value or how significant the impact to the game), with the consequences of failure greater for more significant creations would work out?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by ronalmb

What I've been doing that hasn't caused any problems yet, is to allow magical spells as a way for characters to spend their CP on Advantages I would not normally allow them to acquire during gameplay (example, I would not normally allow a character to acquire a physical trait such as Darkvision or Doesn't Breathe). I charge the spell cost +50 Energy and if the spell is succesfully perform, the character can purchase the ability. If the character chooses not to spend those points, the spell simply expires after a day (it didn't "take").

Interesting. I've just said a Greater Transform Magic effect can allow the character to purchase traits granted temporarily by Altered Traits. But that works too.

Originally Posted by ronalmb

Seems to be working, as far as that goes.

Which is all that matters.

Originally Posted by ronalmb

I wonder how a casting skill penalty based upon "value" (material value or how significant the impact to the game), with the consequences of failure greater for more significant creations would work out?

Not sure what you mean here.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by ronalmb

What I've been doing that hasn't caused any problems yet, is to allow magical spells as a way for characters to spend their CP on Advantages I would not normally allow them to acquire during gameplay (example, I would not normally allow a character to acquire a physical trait such as Darkvision or Doesn't Breathe). I charge the spell cost +50 Energy and if the spell is succesfully perform, the character can purchase the ability. If the character chooses not to spend those points, the spell simply expires after a day (it didn't "take").

Seems to be working, as far as that goes.

The difficulties with other types of permanent effects are pretty much as has been observed -- the danger of ruined economies, acquiring wealth unearned, etc can derail the campaign easily.

I wonder how a casting skill penalty based upon "value" (material value or how significant the impact to the game), with the consequences of failure greater for more significant creations would work out?

One could always rule that created materials always have a detectable level of magic to them, and/or that they evaporate into nothingness when they enter a No Mana Zone. With RPM, this includes Blighted lands, meaning Create Iron/Steel would be nice for a few knives, but, useless in war, as even a novice mage could destroy your entire armory while trying to conjure up some beer. And, of course, gold with that magical tint is known to be conjured, and of far lesser value than "real" gold.

[Humabout]

Idhmbwm atm, so i cant get into details much, but Create from Powers has a creation pool of character points used to make creations permanent. The rules there m8ght be worth looking at as an option as well.