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Old 01-04-2013, 09:30 AM   #1
Aneirin
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Setting idea

Hello. Apologies, long post ahead. Short version, building a road through a jungle the size of the atlantic of pacific ocean around 10 miles wide. How long do you think it would take?

Long versionL- I had a setting idea...well...I said I had it, I am sure an idea posted by someone in the forums and decided to expand on it.

The TL level would be 5, simply because I do not see enough settings during this time line. Focusing on muskets and rifles as main weapons but due to reload times having to use them as clubs or go with other weapons, armour not utilized much due to the uselessness against rifles and muskets.

It would be set on a world, much like our own, except no oceans. Where the oceans would be, are instead massive jungles.

Each landmass would have a number of kingdoms, but would know only rumours about kingdoms and empires on other landmasses, due to the difficulty of traversing the jungles.

People try, but most never come back getting lost and dead, those that do, may not risk coming back.

In one empire, an unspecified time ago (either decades or hundreds of years) a man from another area came, with stories of wealth and a desire to trade. The emperor decided...well, I want me some of that (being rather young and wanting to make a name for himself) and so decides, to comission a road, as it would be the only way to make safe travel through the jungle and to enable trade which at the moment is impossible.

It is a grand undertaking (imagine a road 10 miles across being built across the atlantic ocean, through a jungle) and there were a number of civil wars over who gets to build the road, seeing the country that built it getting the best trade, and wars between various guilds for the rights to build (due to the income to be generated) eventually coming in an unsteady stalemate were they begrudgingly work together.

The setting would begin a good deal into the road being built. A large number of different individuals would be drawn, lumberers obviously to cut the trees and constant travel back and forth, construction to build the road, and build towns on it (due to the distances and time involved, workers may be spending their lives on it)

Miners to mine the jungle for resources, scouts and explorers to scout ahead, diplomats to represent the various countries, soldiers and mercenaries to protect nation and guild interests, and against indigineous people.

The jungle has various tribes in it, some peaceful, some not, some with voodoo (cos I like voodoo) And ofcourse weird monsters and creatures (some of which would be chased like whalers chased whales due to the ability to sell them or bits of them)

And this is where I would need some advice.

Economics:- Initially, the main conflict between nations would be rights to lumber, as lumber is expensive. Ofcourse in this setting, lumber would be much cheaper due to the amount (I was going to do it as 'landlocked' nations, those not close to the 'coast' would pay a premium price for it, and it is these lumberers would seek to sell to. The money made from building the road (for the guilds) would be transporting lumber and mined materials not needed for the road back to the nations. Overspply may become a problem as nations have to find other reasons to encourage people to build when supply means it is not worth the effort to go in and mine to sell anymore, or perhaps leading to lulls where the road will be stopped for a few years until demand goes back up.

Logistics:- How long would it take to build such a road (bearing in mind there may be chasms and having to build around or through mountains)? Is it too wide? I was thinking of the people poisioning the earth where the road is built to make sure the jungle doesn't come back with salt and lime, is this possible?

Help:- I was thinking, if it would take too long for humans to do it, to allow steam powered engines to help, would this make it go too quick though?

Towns:- Would it be neccesary to build towns on such a road, or just little wooden villages that can be left abondoned or givent he distance would towns help as trade outposts for when the road is completed?

Expansion:- In such a world, a nation could easily expand by cutting more trees. Have been trying to come up with a plausible reason as to why this doesn't happen.Perhaps a historical war where a nation expanded to aggressively leading to other nations taking land from it to equalize and as such all expansion has to be approved by a council of nations (which approved the road on the understanding that the road would belong to no nation...however, permanent towns would, leading to quite a bit of fighting whenever a new town is to be built)

Any opinions on these questions (especially the bit about the actual building of the road) would be appreciated. Also, whether as a PC you would like to play in such a setting?
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:47 AM   #2
ericthered
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Default Re: Setting idea

Well, this project is substantially more difficult than the great wall, and won't be finished by the emperor, at least not at that tech level.

I'd reduce the road to be a hundred yards across, with is still stupidly wide, and bring in steam engines, they will make the project possible, instead of stopping 100 miles out when the emperor's grandson dies.

My idea for preventing expansion by kingdoms is to have the jungle in a depression, lower than the rest of the land. At a specific time of day (or month, or week, or year, or whatever) thick clouds of noxious gas (or even just an unbreathable one) are released by the trees, flooding the jungle floor. The tide of gas from the trees floods areas where the trees have been cut down, rendering them unihabitable. Yes, this means your road will need waystations, but its better than magically fast growing trees or a contrived political system.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:15 AM   #3
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Default Re: Setting idea

I also could only imagine this while thinking of the jungle as being in a depression lower than the landmasses. That still doesn't seem like quite enough to stop the jungle from already having been colonized somewhat. Weird poison gases could work to have stopped earlier colonization. My guess is that the tribes in the jungle might work better for that purpose with what you have in mind. The more alien or inhuman those tribes, the better.

Poisoning the land with salt and lime is definitely possible. I don't know though, but I think it'd be unnecessary. However wide the road is, the space on it will be a premium. That space will be used. There won't be need to worry about stuff growing up on it.

My main question is why are they making a long road out into the middle of this jungle? Big question to be honest. A good answer to it would probably make the difference between, "Huh? I don't know about that...." and "Hmm, definitely worth looking into".
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:21 AM   #4
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Default Re: Setting idea

Or perhaps the ground won't allow regular crops to be grown in the jungle anyway, because the ground is poisoned, and humans can't eat what grows on the trees. That lets the trees be cut down easily while not giving a real incentive to do so, other than lumber.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:29 AM   #5
Aneirin
 
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Default Re: Setting idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by hari View Post
I also could only imagine this while thinking of the jungle as being in a depression lower than the landmasses. That still doesn't seem like quite enough to stop the jungle from already having been colonized somewhat. Weird poison gases could work to have stopped earlier colonization. My guess is that the tribes in the jungle might work better for that purpose with what you have in mind. The more alien or inhuman those tribes, the better.

Poisoning the land with salt and lime is definitely possible. I don't know though, but I think it'd be unnecessary. However wide the road is, the space on it will be a premium. That space will be used. There won't be need to worry about stuff growing up on it.

My main question is why are they making a long road out into the middle of this jungle? Big question to be honest. A good answer to it would probably make the difference between, "Huh? I don't know about that...." and "Hmm, definitely worth looking into".
Thanks. The setting is only in alpha stage at the moment, and if I can't get these questions answered without an unreasonable suspension of disbeleif I will need to abandon it :)

Before I do though, the main incentive for building the road would be getting resources from the jungle (and the nations guiding it towards the other countries due to promises of milk and honey.

Not everyone would beleive or want this. Some nations guiding the road in poor directions so they can take stuff without going forward. And some trying to stop it entirely. (the pc's themselves may decide this is their goal)
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:37 AM   #6
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Default Re: Setting idea

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Or perhaps the ground won't allow regular crops to be grown in the jungle anyway, because the ground is poisoned, and humans can't eat what grows on the trees. That lets the trees be cut down easily while not giving a real incentive to do so, other than lumber.
The bit about it being in a depression is a good point. I am not sure about poison gas, may make it difficult to build the road. But perhaps the jungle is very swampy in the depressions, water rising and falling and at its lowest the land is soggy and useless for building on, this may make the building too difficult again though.

I don't want the politics to be contrived, however, I did want them to play an important part.

For instance the first 'adventure' would be a canyon. This leads to a mad search by mining companies for closer stone which they can sell to a construction company who would be able to get hefty payment from a nation city (whilst the road is nor owned by a nation, anything permanent is which has been used to allow taxation and nation control of bridges)

As for it taking more than a generation, I assumed it would, with a constant threat of the road stopping, however due to the cities.on it it would be a self sustaining evonomy, though perhsps 10 miles.is too big. How much would you need for a.city?
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: Setting idea

If I'd like to have the setting with such details, i'd start with some plausible reasons for such world (unless "it's magic!", of course).

- How did the evolution of that world go? What is its history before that TL 5? How did people appear and settle in such enclosed areas?

- What is the nature of those tribes in jungles? Do they live in jungles themselves or on some little glades, not large enough to allow further technical progress beyond TL 0-1?

- What are sources of fresh water there? Are there any water areas at all? If not, what is that lumber used for? Fuel (aren't there an alternative, maybe some fossil fuel)? Building (are stone and bricks more expensive)?

- Can those jungles with some handwaiving provide foodstock comparable to fishing? Maybe some packing birds like dodos or beasts?

- Are there some climatic zones?

- Is it spherical at all?

- What is the nature of jungles and free areas? Does habitable land have more convential forests?

- Does it have significant land features like mountains, hills, swamps deserts?

- If jungles sometimes goes into land you can imagine something like Netherlands with their dams =)

And this is only very short list of issues which come into mind just in a few minutes. Don't think it's some claiming, it's just questions to guide you ;)
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:29 AM   #8
Aneirin
 
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Default Re: Setting idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
If I'd like to have the setting with such details, i'd start with some plausible reasons for such world (unless "it's magic!", of course).

- How did the evolution of that world go? What is its history before that TL 5? How did people appear and settle in such enclosed areas?

- What is the nature of those tribes in jungles? Do they live in jungles themselves or on some little glades, not large enough to allow further technical progress beyond TL 0-1?

- What are sources of fresh water there? Are there any water areas at all? If not, what is that lumber used for? Fuel (aren't there an alternative, maybe some fossil fuel)? Building (are stone and bricks more expensive)?

- Can those jungles with some handwaiving provide foodstock comparable to fishing? Maybe some packing birds like dodos or beasts?

- Are there some climatic zones?

- Is it spherical at all?

- What is the nature of jungles and free areas? Does habitable land have more convential forests?

- Does it have significant land features like mountains, hills, swamps deserts?

- If jungles sometimes goes into land you can imagine something like Netherlands with their dams =)

And this is only very short list of issues which come into mind just in a few minutes. Don't think it's some claiming, it's just questions to guide you ;)
Thanks for that. Hadn't given much thought to how the world winded up like that. I just assumed people on their respective landmasses would advance as usual.

The tribal people would live in the jungle, some in the mountains. Each one would be different, some peaceful, can be talked and traded with (once language difficulties are overcome) others see the road as something to be stopped, and others cannibilistic feral mad men, communication would be very difficult as two tribes may speak completely different languages. Technoligcally they would have just never advanced (as some people today have not) The suggestion to make the jungle poison/marshland giving another reason why not. With the vicious creatures around and in an inhospitaible environment they are more concerned with living than advancing.

I did briefly think of fresh water. My lack of geography knowledge may be showing but I didn't think it would be an issue. In the mainland it would be streams and lakes (justified as we don't drink sea water so obviously must have enugh fresh water without it) though a geologist may need to correct me on this. In the jungle, lakes, condensation, if it is a boggy marshland people could just drink the floor...then probably die.

Lumber has a million uses! (in the word of the simpsons) even today trees can be sold for a lot. A friend of mine had a man cut down a tree in his garden, the cutter asked what he wanted done with the tree and my mate said take it away. The cutter thanked him and sold the tree for a couple of grand! Construction, even if not building out of wood scaffolding, tools, furniture, charcoal, wood is needed in a lot of builings even when using brick and probably a lot more I haven't thought of. At least I think, I am not a lumber expert and am going of a quote from the simpsons!

Jungle's would provide food stuffs, but mostly exotic things for rich nobles. Although for the road workers they would become much more dependant upon it. In the mainland it would be regular cattle. Sort of like today, we get some food (fish) from the ocean, but not the majority.

There would be different climates, equator hotter, poles colder, and differing things there, different foliage animals and problems.

It is spherical.

There would be forests in the mainland for some nations, other landlocked nations would be quite dependant on others selling them lumber.

I did imagine their being a few mountains (for mining), swamps (may become the predominant terrain feature) and other terrain features and even barren dead areas.

I will need to give the history some more thought, the free areas would be of sizes between russia and britain and aren't greatly enclosed though, but how people wind up spread out is an important question, perhaps something happened to the world, maybe a climate change which caused the depressed areas becoming swampy and jungle like seperating people and trapping others?, any other guding questions would be greatly apprecatied (and if any of the answers above don't suffice they will clearly need some more work as well)

Last edited by Aneirin; 01-04-2013 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: Setting idea

Well, ok.
Since it's TL 5, I am going to suggest something.

Rail.

It's probably as difficult to lay as a road, and is faster than carts and horse. You have plenty of coal, and it can be armed against incursion by tribes.

Set up fortified Stations/depots at mines/Logging camps. It also leads to the sort of claustrophobic "enclave" feel for many towns and cities - they are completely surrounded by jungle. When the train is taken, you quickly leave teh "civilized" depot, only to be surrounded by walls of dense trees.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Setting idea

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Originally Posted by Fwibos View Post
Well, ok.
Since it's TL 5, I am going to suggest something.

Rail.

It's probably as difficult to lay as a road, and is faster than carts and horse. You have plenty of coal, and it can be armed against incursion by tribes.

Set up fortified Stations/depots at mines/Logging camps. It also leads to the sort of claustrophobic "enclave" feel for many towns and cities - they are completely surrounded by jungle. When the train is taken, you quickly leave teh "civilized" depot, only to be surrounded by walls of dense trees.
This is awesome. Just plain awesome. I think you could have a lot of fun with a setting like this.
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