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Old 02-22-2018, 08:23 AM   #21
ericthered
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

A few notes on paying for what you get, and getting what you pay for.

If he doesn't have men under him, he doesn't have rank. These don't have to be permanent underlings. Some might just be in charge of taking care of his horse or two, handing him lances, and polishing his armor... but that's barely rank 1. If he can give orders to otherwise unled squads on the field, that could count.

If he merely can't be ordered around by the 20-man level of foot soldier captains, that's courtesy rank, not actual rank. I suspect your basic knight will have rank 1 for his actual staff that keeps him in fighting shape, and courtesy rank for the rest of it. (I would stat a pilot the same way).

The legal privileges of a knight vs. a commoner are significant, but I'd put that at the [5] level, not the [10]. I'm not sure how much of this is actually status and it looks like legal powers to us because of our current societies hostility to legally established status. Remember that pretty much every significant foe the knight faces is likely to either have the same level of power or be an outlaw who doesn't care. When he is up against common folk, remember to leverage your status. If it comes down to he-said-she-said, you have a major advantage. That's hard for us modern folk to grasp and use properly, but its there, and its part of what makes a dashing knight able to focus on combat solutions in old tales rather than legal ones.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:00 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

Another good thing to remember is that in late medieval and renaissance Europe, military offices could be as short as a ten-month contract. Characters only have an advantage on their character sheet if it will last the length of the campaign or until something drastic happens. If you get conscripted during the Belgravian invasion and talk the captain into making you vinetar (captain-of-20) because you are a pillar of the community (Status 1, good Reputation) and have been at war before (in-game events), you don't buy Military Rank for character points because in a few months the Belgravians will be gone and you will be back to your regular life. On the other hand, if after the Belgravian invasion you flee to Miklgarth and enlist in Avtokrator's bodyguard, you might have Military Rank.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

For my mid- to late-medieval inspired setting, I generalize three types of knights and assign Status and Feudal Rank accordingly.

I do not use Military Rank (except for mercenary companies) because military command is commissioned from the nobility on a temporary basis for the prosecution of a particular battle, campaign, or season. Feudal Rank generally tracks with Status, but may vary depending on the number of household troops commanded and the size of their land's levy.

Knight-Errant
Possess no land and are in service to no overlord. This includes knights who make their living in tournaments, robber knights, knights-turned-mercenary, and pilgrim-knights.
  • Status 1
  • Feudal Rank 0, though they may have Mercenary Rank

Knight-Bachelor
Have no lands, but are sworn to the service of a liege-lord or a religious or military order. They may undertake certain household duties, serve as their lord's champion, and lead his men into battle.
  • Status 2
  • Feudal Rank 1 to 4
  • Legal Enforcement Powers [5]

Knight-Banneret
Hold lands in their own name (or that of their order) and considered a peer of the realm.
  • Status 3+
  • Feudal Rank 2 to 5
  • Claim to Hospitality (Peers) [10]
  • Legal Enforcement Powers [10]
  • Legal Immunity [15]

Patrons & Duty - A knight's liege or order may serve as their patron or may not depending on their personal relationship. Regardless, any knight with Feudal Rank owes their overlord a Duty. A true Patron might bestow gifts, pay a knight's ransom, or speak for him in the king's court.

Wealth - Knights with less wealth than Very Wealthy are not able to afford all of the arms, armor, and horses expected of their class. Poor knights may have cheaper, used gear or simply do without (though they will be subject to derision). Alternatively, a Patron may provide some of their gear, or they might spend points on cash to acquire expensive items as gifts they received, tournament winnings, heirlooms, etc.
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Old 02-22-2018, 03:39 PM   #24
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

I think that Fuedal Rank is an adequate substitute for Military Rank in Fuedal societies. The bonus Status from 3+ levels allows them to support higher levels of Status without every noble being a Multimillionaire, meaning that you stop having excessive wealth issues. A king with Feudal Rank 7 would only require Multimillionaire 1 to support their Status 7 because their two free levels of Status from Feudal Rank would support the difference in cost between Status 5 and Status 7.
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Old 02-22-2018, 03:40 PM   #25
phayman53
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
When i wrote it up for GURPS Social Engineering, I had it work slightly differently. You still purchased the diffuse attribute of Status, but you also purchased Feudal Rank equal to Status, if you were a noble who had actual power.

So, for example, Henry VIII had Status 7, Feudal Rank 7, and some level of Wealth---let's say Multimillionaire 1 after he expropriated the monasteries. His wealth would have cost 75 points; his Rank 35; but his Status would have been discounted 5 points for Wealth and 10 for Rank, meaning it cost 20 points.
Would you be willing to clarify specifically what the differences are between Feudal Rank and Status? My impression is that, in a Feudal society for most of the Middle Ages, feudal rank did not give you the ability to order around lower rank people unless they were specifically your vassal. Even then, you had somewhat limited control over your vassals based on agreed terms of service, etc. It certainly wasn't like a military hierarchy where any Count could give any knight an order and expect to be obeyed. Rather, most things seemed to work based on social influence.

On the other hand, I can see that there were other ways to status besides being a Feudal Lord, especially through the clergy. Female nobles also had status equal to their husbands but not usually formal authority outside of their manor. So I think I understand why you have a separate Feudal Rank (and assume that clergy should have Religious Rank--female nobles, on the other hand, probably need to work through status alone).

I guess what I am wondering is what specifically Feudal Rank gets you in addition to Status in the historical Middle Ages? Also, is it worth a full 5 points/level, or should it be worth less? This seems a bit pricey to me, especially when considering the assistance mechanic in Pulling Rank, I don't feel like Feudal Lords had access to the same kind of organizational support that a modern military officer, or even law enforcement officer, would. It depended much more on personal relationships, which were influenced by rank but not guaranteed by them.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:34 AM   #26
Olinto
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

I am also interested on a final statement about how Feudal Rank interacts with privilege advantages. A High ranking noble should also buy legal immunity, legal enforcement powers and claim to hospitality or it is all included in the Rank?
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:17 AM   #27
whswhs
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
I guess what I am wondering is what specifically Feudal Rank gets you in addition to Status in the historical Middle Ages? Also, is it worth a full 5 points/level, or should it be worth less? This seems a bit pricey to me, especially when considering the assistance mechanic in Pulling Rank, I don't feel like Feudal Lords had access to the same kind of organizational support that a modern military officer, or even law enforcement officer, would. It depended much more on personal relationships, which were influenced by rank but not guaranteed by them.
The example given in Social Engineering for Status + Feudal Rank is Henry VIII, who is arguably Renaissance rather than medieval.

The way I would break things down is roughly this. Status basically means that you are recognized throughout a society as entitled to respect, deference, and/or cooperation. Feudal Rank means that there's an actual chain of command (at least from lord to vassal to subvassal), that you have access to resources, and that you are regarded as "legitimate" in some way. If you don't have all of those, then you don't have full on Feudal Rank and could plausibly pay fewer points for it; you might have nothing but a title (a form of Courtesy Rank).

Or, if you want a simpler system (the varying rank costs are an optional system for people who want complexity), you can just say that Status either carries a share in the powers of the state (and Feudal Rank) or just gets you informal respect and deference (no Rank).

Either way, it's a GM judgment call. The rules are there to give you a vocabulary in which to express that judgment.
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Old 06-24-2018, 12:46 PM   #28
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

There are a lot of regional variation ... but roughly speaking, and looking at Western and Central Europe, 900 to 1500, there are 4 "scales" of social power (5 with Religious rank):

++Birth Status : from commoner to Royal blood.
Gurps wise : this is base status, unmodified by rank or wealth.
It give you respect and deference.
In many places, it is a prerequisite for administrative or military rank of equal value. But not always, not everywhere.
When the above did apply, historically, people often tried to (ab)use it as if it they had administrative or military rank, even when they did not. If nobody above them in the proper chain of command was around, it usually worked. Otherwise, expect trouble.

++Wealth :
It allow to distinguish between people of similar birth status, or raise one apparent status (especially for commoner. A multimillionaire Lombard merchant may not be noble, but he will get listened to).
Above a certain level of birth status, great wealth is expected/assumed. If not, keeping the appearance is of utmost importance !

++Administrative (feodal) Rank :
This is the actual authority in civil matters. King > Ministers / Provincial Dukes / Peers of the realm > various lower levels.
Often, but not always, tied to birth Status. (several central Europe country, notably, had commoners as Minister or Governors. )
Raise one apparent status.
Usually only apply to one person per family. (the head of family). Spouse, Brothers/Sisters, sons, daughters, nephews and nieces have the birth status, not the rank.
When someone of higher birth status challenge the authority of someone of lesser birth but actual rank... result may varies.

++Military rank :
This is the actual authority in military matters.
Often, but not always, tied to birth Status.
Usually temporary and only valid for one campaign/one army, but permanent rank do exist, mostly for the highest ranks (connetable) and within established companies.
When someone of higher birth status challenge the authority of someone of lesser birth but actual rank... result may varies.

++And don't forget religious rank, which will also boost status, even and especially if it is only courtesy rank (Cardinal Richelieu or Mazarin, for example).

+legal immunity : if applicable, must be bought.
In some time/places, it is automatically tied to status / rank and the GM may decide not to require it and apply the effect automatically. But historically, this is quite uncommon, no matter what the French Revolutionary wrote... If not automatic, the cost of Status should probably be slightly reduced.

+legal enforcement powers : if applicable, must be bought.
In some time/places, it is automatically tied to status / rank and the GM may decide not to require it and apply the effect automatically. Historically, this is more common. In those case, only buy it for people who enjoy the power outside of the norm. If not automatic, the cost of Status/ rank should probably be slightly reduced.

+claim to hospitality : if applicable, must be bought.
In many time/places, it is automatically tied to status and the GM may decide not to require it and apply the effect automatically. In those case, only buy it for people who enjoy the CtH outside of the direct downward status chain.

So, properly speaking, a medieval noble must have wealth and status, may have administrative (feudal) rank and may have permanent or temporary military rank (or both if he is in an established company and joined an army in the field).
It is a mess, and historically, debate about who had precedence on whom were common.In game, the skills Heraldry and Savoir-Faire are almost mandatory beyond status 1 !

In a games not focused on Social Engineering, it is probably overkill to buy everything... Just use status and wealth, symbolize administrative authority by legal enforcement power, and only bother with military or religious rank within a long term military company / the church itself.
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:45 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
In a games not focused on Social Engineering, it is probably overkill to buy everything... Just use status and wealth, symbolize administrative authority by legal enforcement power, and only bother with military or religious rank within a long term military company / the church itself.
Historically, SE grew out of a campaign of mine set in France in the early 1700s under Philippe d'Orleans (as regent for Louis XV, I believe). They had all kinds of social hierarchies, including at least three different governmental hierarchies—officers of state, judicial, and financial. So I wanted rules (at least optional rules) that COULD cover than huge maze of social positions and influences.
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:57 PM   #30
Olinto
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Historically, SE grew out of a campaign of mine set in France in the early 1700s under Philippe d'Orleans (as regent for Louis XV, I believe). They had all kinds of social hierarchies, including at least three different governmental hierarchies—officers of state, judicial, and financial. So I wanted rules (at least optional rules) that COULD cover than huge maze of social positions and influences.
So the answer to my previous question is yes? A 13th Century Feudal Rank 5 Status 5 Count should also buy all the privilege advantages associated with his position? I am asking from the PoV of your intention when you wrote SE.
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