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Old 06-22-2018, 06:42 PM   #21
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Missile Spells

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
If Magic Fist took 2 fatigue to cast, it would average less damage than fatigue used to cast it, even when it hit. In our games, Magic Fist wasn't very popular even at 1:1d-2
Yes, Magic Fist was underwhelming in my campaigns as well. On the other hand, it was an IQ 8 spell, so there's that.

I don't care to double the ST requirement of missile spells; as you note, they become a little problematic when ST cost goes up.

I generally limited missile spells to 3 points of ST. After that, it took 2 ST to add a die of damage. This at least minimized the single-shot wizards throwing 10d fireballs.
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Old 06-22-2018, 06:55 PM   #22
KevinJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Missile Spells

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Yes, Magic Fist was underwhelming in my campaigns as well. On the other hand, it was an IQ 8 spell, so there's that.

I don't care to double the ST requirement of missile spells; as you note, they become a little problematic when ST cost goes up.

I generally limited missile spells to 3 points of ST. After that, it took 2 ST to add a die of damage. This at least minimized the single-shot wizards throwing 10d fireballs.
But magic fist does something the other missile spells do not do, it applies force to objects. A Magic Fist could be used to move things around, push a level (direction of force is important here), knock someone off a cliff, and other force related after affects.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:59 PM   #23
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Missile Spells

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Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
But magic fist does something the other missile spells do not do, it applies force to objects. A Magic Fist could be used to move things around, push a level (direction of force is important here), knock someone off a cliff, and other force related after affects.
Agreed that it does apply force. But the TFT rules give few guidelines as to how much force. Steve's unofficial errata defined a "good, hard Magic Fist" as being 4+ points of damage. That would require 3 ST on average to achieve. The context was the Trip spell on pg. 11 of Advanced Wizard. That spell would cause a victim on the edge of a chasm, pit, river, etc., to make a 4/adjDX roll to avoid falling in. A good hard magic fist would do the same.

Trip is an IQ 10 thrown spell (so -1 per hex the target is distant) and cost 2 ST. It does no damage.

By contrast, Magic Fist is an IQ 8 missile spell (so no penalty for 6 hexes range or less; -1 for 7-12 hexes, etc.). It would do 4+ points of damage 17% of the time if 1 ST is used, 42% of the time if 2 ST is used; 84% of the time if 3 ST is used. In addition, Magic Fist does physical damage to the target.

I rejected Steve's rule because it made Magic Fist utterly superior to the Trip spell.

In any case, Magic Fist wasn't very popular in my games and I think it mostly was because the damage inflicted/ST cost ratio was too low.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:28 AM   #24
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Missile Spells

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
... I don't care to double the ST requirement of missile spells; as you note, they become a little problematic when ST cost goes up.

I generally limited missile spells to 3 points of ST. After that, it took 2 ST to add a die of damage. This at least minimized the single-shot wizards throwing 10d fireballs.
Oh, I like that increased rate but only after 3 idea - nice.

As for the sidetrack on Magic Fist vs. Trip ( . . . ), it seems to me they're different. Trip is shorter ranged and doesn't do damage, but lets you knock someone down with 100% certainty for 2 ST if your casting works. It's also not susceptible to Dodge or Reverse Missiles.

I like the flavor of having Magic Fist as it is, a weak IQ 8 missile spell with a unique physical ability. It's not very efficient at doing damage, but at IQ 8 it shouldn't be. (And of course it takes revenge when someone gets Wizard's Wrath... ;-) )
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:09 AM   #25
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Missile Spells

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Oh, I like that increased rate but only after 3 idea - nice.

As for the sidetrack on Magic Fist vs. Trip ( . . . ), it seems to me they're different. Trip is shorter ranged and doesn't do damage, but lets you knock someone down with 100% certainty for 2 ST if your casting works. It's also not susceptible to Dodge or Reverse Missiles.
The problem lies in the fact that Trip is a thrown spell, so a wizard casting it is -1 DX per hex the target is distant. Magic Fist is a missile spell so it can hit targets up to 2 megahexes away at no DX modifier, 4 megahexes at -1 and so on.

The certainty of a Trip is offset by its inaccuracy vis-a-vis Magic Fist. And as noted, Magic Fist also does damage.

Quote:
I like the flavor of having Magic Fist as it is, a weak IQ 8 missile spell with a unique physical ability. It's not very efficient at doing damage, but at IQ 8 it shouldn't be. (And of course it takes revenge when someone gets Wizard's Wrath... ;-) )
Agreed; it can be useful when employed by an imaginative player and a flexible GM. It might even be fun to write up examples of non-damage things that a 1 ST or 2 ST Magic Fist can do.

Example 1 ST Magic Fist can make a loud “thud” on a door, or knock on a door (heavily) for 1 second. Can knock over a full wine bottle or large jar. Can shatter a normal window. Can jar a stuck door lose.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:23 AM   #26
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Missile Spells

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
The problem lies in the fact that Trip is a thrown spell, so a wizard casting it is -1 DX per hex the target is distant. Magic Fist is a missile spell so it can hit targets up to 2 megahexes away at no DX modifier, 4 megahexes at -1 and so on.

The certainty of a Trip is offset by its inaccuracy vis-a-vis Magic Fist. And as noted, Magic Fist also does damage.
Yes, quite, though it still seems to me a difference of kind rather than superiority. Magic Fist does no damage and fails to knock someone down if armor absorbs the damage, they Dodge, or Reverse Missiles deflects it. Magic Fist also requires an open line of fire or a roll to miss, and can accidentally hit the wrong target, while Trip does not have any of those concerns. So Trip may be much more likely to trip someone, especially if the Wizard has high adjDX and is close enough that the Thrown modifier isn't a big deal. And if it hits it WILL trip them, as long as they aren't ST 20+, regardless of armor, reverse missiles, dodging, etc., which means it can take an extremely powerful foe out of action with certainty if the caster can cast his spell, regardless of how formidable the foe is.



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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Agreed; it can be useful when employed by an imaginative player and a flexible GM. It might even be fun to write up examples of non-damage things that a 1 ST or 2 ST Magic Fist can do.

Example 1 ST Magic Fist can make a loud “thud” on a door, or knock on a door (heavily) for 1 second. Can knock over a full wine bottle or large jar. Can shatter a normal window. Can jar a stuck door lose.
Absolutely! Magic Fist is an interesting spell that can be used for many purposes by a smart wizard, as can many spells. Its low IQ level means it's easier to cast it covertly, and it does not involve flashes of light, smoke, shredding splinters, fire, destroyed magic items and loud unnatural sounds that all scream "magical attack!" like Fireball and Lightning do. Simply using it to cause unidentifiable noises and distractions at a long distance and push/hit/break things you can't get to yourself has all sorts of possibilities.
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Old 06-23-2018, 03:16 PM   #27
KevinJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Missile Spells

I tihnk there is a difference in point of view on Missile spells based on your use of TFT.

If you use it for skirmish and arena fighting, then opening a fight with 10d of fireball of Lightning is super powerful in a one on one fight.

If you are running a campaign game where opening with a 10d fireball will only kill one of the 7 Orcs and all the others will now see you are the biggest threat AND you might be pretty much done for the rest of that combat.

As a campaign GM I don't have a problem with missile spells because none of the 'enemy' races in my games are one trick ponies, so you usually have a combined arms conflict.
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:55 PM   #28
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: Missile Spells

Listening to the playtest here but trying to keep it easy - I see some good house rules that I would not try to write up.

Here are my notes now:

Missile spells – cap at 3 ST input, but increase each spell by 1 hit, so Magic Fist becomes 1d-1, Fireball 1, Lightning 1d+1. MF does a minimum damage equal to ST put into it; it never fails completely.

A concern here might be that with missile spells boosted and staves available, a wizard might be tempted to turn into plain old artillery. OTOH, if that is how somebody wants to play, more power to them. I would usually keep Trip in my own repertoire, for instance.

Do we NEED Wiz Wrath at that point, or is it overpowered?

An interesting idea that I do not think I will follow up is: MF bypasses armor. If we did that, a 3-die MF might do as much as 15 direct hits. It sure would discourage the turtles, though.
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:27 PM   #29
Jim Kane
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Missile Spells

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...Do we NEED Wiz Wrath at that point, or is it overpowered?...
That would depend on what we are relating it's relative strength to.

If only looking at it's use against typical fighters, yes, all the missile spells can be abused to turn a wizard into a cannon - and some folks like that sort of game - however, when facing say some gargantuan beastie, an 8+8 w.w. spell may be the only hope the adventure party has to save themselves, and, the world-at-large.

Frankly, I am of the personal opinion that the missile spells are fine the way they are; and, it is up to the creativity and ingenuity of a GM to create scenarios which ultimately punishes players who meet each combat encounter by calling out: "Bring forth the Spell Canon!!!"; and thereby make players think twice about the consequences of such wholesale problem-solving tactics.

So, to reiterate one of my less-popular mantras: "Rather than tweak the performance of the rules to limit player-agency, perhaps we should focus more on how to tweak the performance of the average GM; if desired."

After all, unbridled actions, free of consequence, rewards and encourages further unbridled actions; and if that is game some folks want, so be it; but the option to run a disciplined game of consequence of actions, or, to run amok with mayhem, should be left up to each group to decide for themselves - rather than being dictated by creating artificial governors within the rules.

JK
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:18 PM   #30
tomc
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Carrboro, NC
Default Re: Missile Spells

I'd say something was "overpowered" only if it eclipsed other options in the game to the point that they were never chosen.

If the WW IQ requirement is high enough to distinguish it from lightning, it won't be overpowered for me. I'd see it as an incentive to raise my IQ.
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