RPM Magery Limitation: Can't use Greater Effects

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Refplace

How so? I have found it very tweakable.
A given character could have different skills, perks and advantages that make a change vs. another caster.
And as for the system itself from a GMs point you can just change and add or remove various Paths.

The main problem identified here is that there's no trait required, whether learnable or inborn, to use the magic. All you have to do is learn some skills. The traits only help you do the magic better.

With no underlying mandatory trait, there's nothing you can apply Limitations to, nor is there anything you can "sell off" during character creation if you wish to create a character who absolutely cannot use magic, in exchange for a modest bribe in CP.

It doesn't have to be a big deal. In fact if it is a big deal, almost all players making non-casters would take that disad without hesitation. But a trait casting 10 CP could be a good basis for Limitations, and would not significantly increase the template cost, relative to the 400 CP totals in the core PDF.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The main problem identified here is that there's no trait required, whether learnable or inborn, to use the magic. All you have to do is learn some skills. The traits only help you do the magic better.

You still need Magery. Without Magery 0 you're at -5 to all spellcasting, and Magery 1+ acts as a cap on skill, so a completely untalented caster will have a maximum of skill 7 in all Paths. I think that's plenty to define Magery as the required trait for competent spellcasting.

With no underlying mandatory trait, there's nothing you can apply Limitations to, nor is there anything you can "sell off" during character creation if you wish to create a character who absolutely cannot use magic, in exchange for a modest bribe in CP.

Non-Magery spellcasting is already so limited, I'd give no more than a Quirk (equivalent to Incompetence) to someone who can't ever learn magic.

It doesn't have to be a big deal. In fact if it is a big deal, almost all players making non-casters would take that disad without hesitation. But a trait casting 10 CP could be a good basis for Limitations, and would not significantly increase the template cost, relative to the 400 CP totals in the core PDF.

I'd have no problem applying limits to Magery for things that prevent casting; there's not much difference between "max skill 7" and "no skill" in most cases. If it really matters to you, call it an additional Quirk, as above.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

How does that work?

In most logical settings, organizational membership is a social trait, completely divorced from the metaphysics of the setting.

There may be secret learnings that such an organization wants to prevent non-members from learning, but in a realistic world, no such organization is 100% water tight. And by this I mean Unusual Background.

Initiation into Ollave gives mystical insight that cannot be acquired in any other way. This is knowledge from the gods.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

You still need Magery. Without Magery 0 you're at -5 to all spellcasting, and Magery 1+ acts as a cap on skill, so a completely untalented caster will have a maximum of skill 7 in all Paths. I think that's plenty to define Magery as the required trait for competent spellcasting.

So the first level of Magery is hugely important... I had forgotten that. I sit corrected. Somewhat.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Initiation into Ollave gives mystical insight that cannot be acquired in any other way. This is knowledge from the gods.

And there's one group that has an absolute monopoly on interaction with these gods. That sounds extremely odd to me, that heresies and breakout sects cannot work at all, in an absolute sense.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

And there's one group that has an absolute monopoly on interaction with these gods. That sounds extremely odd to me, that heresies and breakout sects cannot work at all, in an absolute sense.

I'm not sure that was the intention. It's just that, among this order, a certain rank is required to be granted access to such secrets. There could certainly be room for other traditions, apostates, etc, who have also uncovered these abilities, especially if there are other pantheons of gods who may have knowledge of them.

EDIT: Well, I guess he does say "cannot be acquired in any other way", which does sound a bit too absolute. Still, those who leave the order after achieving that rank could potentially impart the knowledge (or the ritual required to access the secrets) to their students.

[Anders]

*shrug*

That's the way the gods want it. You have a problem with that, take it up with them. I'm sure they will be happy to listen.

There are other ways to work magic in other cultures, of course. But in this culture it's Ollave or nothing.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'm not sure that was the intention. It's just that, among this order, a certain rank is required to be granted access to such secrets. There could certainly be room for other traditions, apostates, etc, who have also uncovered these abilities, especially if there are other pantheons of gods who may have knowledge of them.

EDIT: Well, I guess he does say "cannot be acquired in any other way", which does sound a bit too absolute. Still, those who leave the order after achieving that rank could potentially impart the knowledge (or the ritual required to access the secrets) to their students.

No, as I understand Asta's post, they can't. If they leave the Order, they are guilty of heresy in an absolute and obective (and metaphysical) sense, and they lose the use of all the magic. The Order is provably correct.

That sounds disturbingly absoute to me. Not just "a bit".

There may be other religions in Asta's world, but none like this one. For this particular religion, this particular "shape" of religion, a "druidic" shape, the Order has a total monopoly on the religious truth of the religion (of that kind of religion). Their interpretation is 100% correct and is the only correct interpretation. Alternative druids cannot exist in that world.

Well... I just find it to be a very, very odd style of worldbuilding.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The main problem identified here is that there's no trait required, whether learnable or inborn, to use the magic. All you have to do is learn some skills. The traits only help you do the magic better.

That's not true. There is one trait that's absolutely mandatory before you can work rituals: Thaumatology. Without having at least 1 point in that skill, you explicitly cannot cast spells, period.

With no underlying mandatory trait, there's nothing you can apply Limitations to, nor is there anything you can "sell off" during character creation if you wish to create a character who absolutely cannot use magic, in exchange for a modest bribe in CP.

That'd be Incompetence (Thaumatology) [-1]. In a campaign where RPM is the magic system, the ability to understand and cast spells is skill-based, so whether you can cast spells is a question resolved on the same level as whether you can swim, cook well, or drive.