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Old 01-23-2012, 03:03 PM   #1
nerdvana
 
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Default ATR/ETS Question

In another thread, Bruno brought an intriguing question into my mind with the following information...

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
ATR doesn't actually give you any reaction time benefits, technically. I'd be concerned about keeping that as an option for Parry Bullets, as a lot of people seem to be a bit fuzzy on that point.

Enough so that I think GURPS 5e should perhaps make ETS part of or the entirety of the "First level" of ATR. That would also help sort out the confusion between the two names, which suggest similar ideas.
That question is this... how come ATR doesn't include ETS in a similar way that ETS includes Combat Reflexes?

(Other than the obvious that it wasn't done that way...)

Last edited by nerdvana; 01-23-2012 at 03:07 PM. Reason: added a parenthetical note
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

ETS is not a leveled trait so adding a lesser ability is figured into the cost. With ATR it would have to be one price for level 1 then a different price for each level after.
Also ETS is about your perception and ATR is about your action.
ETS in fact is superior perception wise to having ATR for its defined functions.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

ATR represents the ability to physically act faster (or warp time so it appears that you can). ETS represents the ability to think and perceive faster. They're two related, but different things.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
ETS is not a leveled trait so adding a lesser ability is figured into the cost. With ATR it would have to be one price for level 1 then a different price for each level after.
So's Magery. :)
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
ATR represents the ability to physically act faster (or warp time so it appears that you can). ETS represents the ability to think and perceive faster. They're two related, but different things.
Excellent. Matched my understanding well. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
ETS in fact is superior perception wise to having ATR for its defined functions.
That's what I thought, thus the builds I put in the thread I mentioned in the original post.

Last edited by nerdvana; 01-23-2012 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Ansering Refplace also
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
So's Magery. :)
Yeah well that really is a 3E carry over :P
There are other advantages that would kill that though, like Regeneration. But a 45 point advantage is a big one to roll into something.
But I think the latter reason I gave is the big one and RPKs post supports that.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

ETS is pretty extreme. You can see the individual frames of a film, react before anyone or anything else in the universe (unless they also have ETS), parry bullets, etc...

If you have ATR 1, and you thought as fast as you moved (2X the rate of a normal person), that wouldn't, IMHO, be as fast as someone with ETS.

If, ETS were to be included in ATR (which I'm not opposed to on principle), I would want to see ETS broken down into smaller levels.

Level 1: Combat Reflexes, etc...

Nevertheless, I'd always prefer to have the option of buying them separately.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
ETS is not a leveled trait so adding a lesser ability is figured into the cost. With ATR it would have to be one price for level 1 then a different price for each level after.
Also ETS is about your perception and ATR is about your action.
ETS in fact is superior perception wise to having ATR for its defined functions.
ETS is about actions, too, not just perceptions. You act first, and your active defenses get that boost, both features involving physical actions and reactions.

I'd say it would be a reasonable house rule to make ETS into a leveled trait at the same time that its perceptual effects were made a little less uber at the first level - something like letting it be 30 points per level (and +1 to Active Defenses, supremacy over any lower level for initiative purposes) after taking Combat Reflexes as the base. Then we could judge whether it should be included under ATR on a per level basis, or just paired with it in the vast majority of cases.

If lumped under it, you'd be paying 100 points (after the initial 15 points for CR, unless you decided to be really nice and include that in the first level too) for each a) extra Maneuver, b) +1 to Active Defenses, and c) level of 'initiative supremacy' - you act before anybody with a lower level. These are all things that go together conceptually, although it could be argued that 100 points is too cheap for all of it, or that it's missing some things - like the ability to do speed-based Deceptive Attacks or ignore some level of speed penalties for fast-moving targets. Lump those in, too, and I think a fair price for the entire package would be around 150 points per level, either parsing it out into parts or treating it as a +50% enhancement on regular ATR. Or maybe you'd decide 100 points per level is enough... GM's choice.

So, it would go:

Combat Reflexes (barely faster than normal)
Enhanced Time Sense 1 (perception and reactions only, no maneuver)/Altered Time Rate (all that plus maneuver) 1
ETS 2/ATR 2
ETS 3/ATR 3

and so on. Or maybe you decide that once you'd gone into ATR territory, they couldn't really be separated out any longer.

Last edited by vitruvian; 01-23-2012 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
If, ETS were to be included in ATR (which I'm not opposed to on principle), I would want to see ETS broken down into smaller levels.

Level 1: Combat Reflexes, etc...

Nevertheless, I'd always prefer to have the option of buying them separately.
Yeah that idea comes up from time to time. I would like to see it as well.
Probably geometric rather then linear like ATR though. I would like to see it separated from Combat Reflexes and leveled as say a 15 point trait.
I can see builds where someone can see and perceive faster but are still paralyzed in fear by surprise, not any less vulnerable to fright checks, etc.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: ATR/ETS Question

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
ETS is about actions, too, not just perceptions. You act first, and your active defenses get that boost, both features involving physical actions and reactions.
Mostly because Combat Reflexes was lumped into it which I think was a mistake. I see how it happened but would rather see them separate.

Acting first is ok, thats still more thinking faster but not able to follow though with extra actions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
I'd say it would be a reasonable house rule to make ETS into a leveled trait at the same time that its perceptual effects were made a little less uber at the first level - something like letting it be 30 points per level (and +1 to Active Defenses, supremacy over any lower level for initiative purposes) after taking Combat Reflexes as the base.
+1 to all Active defenses is 30 points so this is too cheap as a leveled trait.

Here is my take on ETS as a leveled trait.
First draft...
Fast Perception [15]
You can think incredibly fast and can observe everything as if it were in slow motion. Each level doubles your perception speed and allows you to reduce penalties for movement by 1. When determining your speed of perception each level doubles your ability. So at level 5 you could see each frame in some movies (32/FPS). Unless a subject is absolutely still this also adds to your perception roll to spot things, including stealth-ed and camouflaged targets as even their breathing can make them stand out from their surroundings. This ability even lets you read faster by more quickly scanning pages. You may react faster and this allows you to add your level to your basic speed in seeing who goes first. However it does not allow you to do more per turn, for that buy ATR. To follow multiple things at the same time consider Enhanced Tracking.
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