Resocialisation in interstellar marines' basic training

[vicky_molokh]

Hmm. Do Gurkhas count as sufficiently alien in the context of a Western military like the UK?
They seem to have their own branch of culture within the UK, and* seem to avoid the SergeantNasty stereotype about officer-soldier relationships.

* == or so people say - never been with one through training, obviously.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Hmm. Do Gurkhas count as sufficiently alien in the context of a Western military like the UK?

Gurkhas train separately from normal British Army recruits, and form all-Gurkha units. The training definitely accommodates the differences in their cultural background. The details of their military culture are somewhat different, but that is true for every regiment of the British Army. It's a remarkably disparate organisation.

They seem to have their own branch of culture within the UK, and* seem to avoid the SergeantNasty stereotype about officer-soldier relationships.

There's an important historical difference. Historically, officers came from the upper classes and other ranks from the working class. The middle class were somewhat under-represented in the peacetime army - the Royal Navy had more of them - and tended to go into the technical arms of the army in wartime.

Until quite recently, there were no high-ranking officers who were ethnic Gurkhas. The officers in Gurkha units were white British; traditionally it was a challenging posting and lacked the social prestige of Guards or Cavalry units, but it had its upsides. But all the Gurkhas were on the same side. They also tend to be willing to comply with military discipline, more so than many Britons. The high prestige of military service in Nepalese culture means that recruiting can be extremely selective, which also helps.

[Gorkamorka]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

snip...They seem to have their own branch of culture within the UK, and* seem to avoid the SergeantNasty stereotype about officer-soldier relationships.

* == or so people say - never been with one through training, obviously.

I did some light research on the Gurkhas for a PC recently and I think I can answer these questions based on that. First of they are there own branch because they are mercenaries. Plain and simple.

SergantNasty does not happens because the army picks a few hundred per year out of tens of thousands volunteers. So the people that make it trough are incredibly motivated. They don't need to be shouted at because they want to be there and do what they are told. Also for cultural reasons shouting at them just makes them ignore you.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Gorkamorka

Also for cultural reasons shouting at them just makes them ignore you.

This is one of the cultural nuances that I decided to play up in Æthereal Sun with some groups. I also wonder how such cultures figure into Agemegos' marine culture - picking the shouting/insult-ignoring and the -influenced into one squad is not going to be efficient, of course, but I wonder just how the two major groups are split - by squad, by platoon etc.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gorkamorka

SergantNasty does not happens because the army picks a few hundred per year out of tens of thousands volunteers. So the people that make it trough are incredibly motivated. They don't need to be shouted at because they want to be there and do what they are told.

Out of some 25,000-30,000 applicants, 270 are selected per year. The best 240 of those go to into the British Army while the rest enter special police units with a historical relationship, IIRC Singapore.

In general, the majority of the applicants will be from 'warrior clans', where all males are expected to seek out military service, and many are sons and grandsons of British Army Gurkhas. Most of them train very hard for just the chance of being selected and since there is a stigma attached to 'failing' to be picked, very few people who are in the least ambivalent about being a Gurkha try out. So there is significant self-selection for motivation and self-confidence. Even so, only the top 1% makes it through.

The Imperial Marines are far more selective, of course. Which, in practice, means that ever recruit is going to be something like a Gurkha squared, which is to say one scarily motivated son-of-a-gun; as well as intelligent, adaptable and possessed of the exact right psychological traits to make him a good fit into his unit.

Training Imperial Marines is less about motivating them or pounding lessons into their head and more about managing the combined egos and ambitions of a class of Alpha Males/Females who happen to be world-class genius athletes. Everyone there will be used to being the best and many of them probably don't like to admit defeat. The trainers will be trying avoid too many deaths and injuries by restraining them rather than anything else.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Out of some 25,000-30,000 applicants, 270 are selected per year. The best 240 of those go to into the British Army while the rest enter special police units with a historical relationship, IIRC Singapore.

<snip>

The Imperial Marines are far more selective, of course. Which, in practice, means that ever recruit is going to be something like a Gurkha squared, which is to say one scarily motivated son-of-a-gun; as well as intelligent, adaptable and possessed of the exact right psychological traits to make him a good fit into his unit.

The CIA World Factbook tells me that Nepal has a total population of 29.9 million, with 380,000 young men attaining the age of military service each year. On Icelander's figures 7.1% volunteer for British service and overall 0.063% of Nepali men become Gurkhas. There are 3,640 Gurkhas in service with the (British) Brigade of Gurkhas, which is 0.012% of the population of Nepal (one per eight thousand).

The planets under the Empire's aegis in FLAT BLACK have a total population somewhat over a trillion. Birth and death rates are low compared to Nepal because the populous planets are highly-developed and their people have access to anagathics and high-tech medical care. On the other hand, the Imperial Marines recruit women, and extreme physical strength is not a selection criterion. Ballpark that 2.7 billion people reach military age each year. The Imperial Marines recruit 11,000 per year. That's about one in each two million. "Gurkhas squared" comes out to one per 2.5 million. So that is surprisingly close.

On the other hand, Nepal is a one-in-200 (three standard deviations) outlier for rate of volunteering for foreign service. It's a country with a strong tradition of mercenary service in Gurkha units, and it is fairly poor, so that youngsters have comparatively few competing opportunities. In the FLAT BLACK, by contrast, few worlds indeed have any tradition of Imperial service, least of all Imperial military service. In fact, most populations are either oblivious too or hostile and suspicious of the Empire. And on the planet with large populations most people are materially well-off. It's sort of like supposing that the UN had its own special forces units and tried to recruit in the USA. Or perhaps what the UN recruiting in the USA would be like if the US armed forces never went overseas and had no borders to defend. Does anyone thing that as many as one person in four hundred would volunteer for the Imperial marines? That seems like a lot. How about one per two thousand? Okay? That leave the Imperial Marines accepting about one volunteer in a thousand. Not quite Gurkhas squared, but at least Gurkhas times ten.

Training Imperial Marines is less about motivating them or pounding lessons into their head and more about managing the combined egos and ambitions of a class of Alpha Males/Females who happen to be world-class genius athletes. Everyone there will be used to being the best and many of them probably don't like to admit defeat. The trainers will be trying avoid too many deaths and injuries by restraining them rather than anything else.

I'm not sure that Imperial Recruiting will necessarily select the most competitive youngsters to be marines. A streak of aggression/competitiveness is probably required for good soldiers, but given the strong requirement of teamwork and restraint in IM operations I should say that an excess of ego and ambition would be disqualifying traits in recruitment.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Brett

I'm not sure that Imperial Recruiting will necessarily select the most competitive youngsters to be marines. A streak of aggression/competitiveness is probably required for good soldiers, but given the strong requirement of teamwork and restraint in IM operations I should say that an excess of ego and ambition would be disqualifying traits in recruitment.

World-class football* players need teamwork too and any sport with complex rules calls for restraint and thought on occasion, but the best players still tend to be extremely competative and driven.

In people who would make good Marine material, this an individual drive to excel might be broadened into a desire to have their training squad/platoon outperform all others, but that would still mean that every training exercise or even free-time game would be contended as Serious Business indeed.

*I'm talking about actual football, i.e. the one with the ball-shaped object that is kicked with feet, not the game which features a thrown egg-shaped object, but is inexplicably not known as 'handegg'. People from odd countries are free to subsitute any other competative team sport in the analogy.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Icelander

World-class football* players need teamwork too and any sport with complex rules calls for restraint and thought on occasion, but the best players still tend to be extremely competative and driven.

They're just competing in a game though. They aren't deciding on behalf of the Empire who shall live and who shall die.

In people who would make good Marine material, this an individual drive to excel might be broadened into a desire to have their training squad/platoon outperform all others, but that would still mean that every training exercise or even free-time game would be contended as Serious Business indeed.

I think that you might be incorrect in assuming that Marines recruits are characterised by extreme competitiveness. That is not the quality that the Imperial Service would necessarily select for. They want adaptability, level-headedness, good judgement, mental quickness and toughness, and the ability to kill calmly combined with a calling to protect the innocent. They aren't going to select for those by skimming the blokes who over-qualify most on the fitness test.

In short "individual drive to excel" does not "make good marine material". It is a characteristic that we tend to find in people who get into selective programs these days because of bad selection technique.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Brett

In short "individual drive to excel" does not "make good marine material". It is a characteristic that we tend to find in people who get into selective programs these days because of bad selection technique.

That seems like a rather important point that people miss when discussing meritocracies of all sorts.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That seems like a rather important point that people miss when discussing meritocracies of all sorts.

Yes. Many people who claim they're being meritocratic are actually implementing "select people like me". Which is a real problem when they aren't sufficiently self-aware to notice their own flaws. You run into salesmen who feel that engineers are cautious and pessimistic. But if they aren't, they'll never anticipate flaws in products.