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Old 08-26-2016, 02:02 AM   #1
Gef
 
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Default Technique Mastery guidelines?

Technique Mastery (Horse Archery): For 5pt, you are a lot better at shooting from the back of a horse than while standing on terra firma. I just can't visualize how that works, and from a price perspective, I think a level of skill limited to firing from horseback should cost 3/lvl.

Technique Mastery (Dual Weapon Attack): For 5pt, you get +4 to hit with weapons as long as you attack twice, no comparable bonus to parry. Effectively this is a bonus to Feint, too. I'm actually okay with the focus on offense; what I can't figure out is why you can't buy a similar benefit for attacking with just one weapon.

Technique Mastery (Kicking): This one's canonical, for 5pt you are hugely better at hitting with your feet than with your hands. Fine, I can accept that you practice kicking a lot, but why can't you practice the other way, get hugely better at hitting with hands? That's canonically forbidden.

Are there any clearer guidelines for determining what can benefit from this perk?
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Old 08-26-2016, 04:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

I think the ability of Technique Mastery to improve techniques above skill level is a mess, and it's probably cool enough that it's more good than bad, but it could benefit from some kind of cleanup.

Yeah, being better at mounted archery strains my credulity.

One might say "being 4 points better at punching than kicking is having Boxing-16 and Karate-12," but that's completely missing the point. Technique Mastery (Uppercut) is damn similar to being better at punching, but again, not what you want.

Hmm. I hoped by the time I typed this out I'd have something more constructive to add, but basically I feel your pain.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:09 AM   #3
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

Thing is Techniques cover such wide range of things it no surprise that Technique mastery is more appropriate for some than others. So I'd apply the rule of common sense (or just GM preference).

Sorry not much of an answer.

But if you don't want your mongols to get a cheap +4 shooting bows in the saddle in comparsion to them shooting on their own two feet, then limit TM to less than +4 or remove it for that Technique
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:49 AM   #4
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

I thought Horse Archery just bought off the penalty? Is there a listed style with TM Horse Archery?

If so, I have characters which need it
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:57 AM   #5
evileeyore
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Technique Mastery (Dual Weapon Attack): For 5pt, you get +4 to hit with weapons as long as you attack twice, no comparable bonus to parry. Effectively this is a bonus to Feint, too. I'm actually okay with the focus on offense; what I can't figure out is why you can't buy a similar benefit for attacking with just one weapon.
You can... you just increase the skill. It costs 4 points to do so. Side benefit, it also increase Dual Weapon attack at the same time.

Quote:
Technique Mastery (Kicking): This one's canonical, for 5pt you are hugely better at hitting with your feet than with your hands. Fine, I can accept that you practice kicking a lot, but why can't you practice the other way, get hugely better at hitting with hands? That's canonically forbidden.
Hugely?

We differ on that definition.

For 5 points (Kicking +2, TM, and a further +1 in Kicking) you get Karate +1 for Kicks.

You do realize that for a mere 4 points you get the same thing for everything Karate, yes?


What you're missing is that you're taking penalized actions (that anyone can do with the skill) and buying a Technique designed to remove those penalties beyond the point of removing those penalties.

I wouldn't allow that unless the specific Style had Technique Mastery (Technique) as a part of the Style.




Now, I see what you're saying, but... watch this:

Take an Optional Specialty on Karate (Punching Only) and presto! Karate costs less (it is now an Average skill) and all other uses of Karate are at -2.
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I thought Horse Archery just bought off the penalty? Is there a listed style with TM Horse Archery?

If so, I have characters which need it
No.

As far as I can tell (with a quick skim of the Martial Arts styles) the only applicable techniques for TM are Arm Lock, Kicking, Any Kick Technique, and Spin Attack.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:20 PM   #7
Gef
 
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

Hi evileeyore,

I don't take your point. For the longest time, I thought Technique Mastery entitled you to buy ONE extra level in a technique, nothing broken there, but a recent thread just pointed out that it actually allows FOUR extra levels with some techniques (anything with normal max equal to skill).

So sure, you can raise Karate for 4pt level and get better at punching, but you can get Kicking to Karate+4. The levels above Karate+0 cost just 1pt each, plus the Technique Mastery perk.

Some techniques stack. Why not Counterattack with Dual Weapons, for instance? This can be a very affordable way to get huge attack values - dual counterattack to the eyes, for instance, or a huge Deceptive Attack penalty. It seems broken to me, but it appears canonical, which makes me think that the designers saw something I don't.

Back to the example with Kicking and punching.

Start with Karate-12.

Punch guy: Spend 8pt, get Karate-14, Parry 10. Also Elbow Strike 12, Back Kick 10, etc.

Kick guy: Spend 8pt, get Karate-12, Parry 9, Kicking-16.

Deceptive attack equalizes the attack and parry likelihood, leaving kick guy with better damage and reach (and minimal chance to fall).

Sure, there are other things Kick guy can't do as well, but the choice is usually his, whether to kick or do those other things he's not so good at.


In my new griffin rider campaign, a player asked me to help her design a really good mounted archer. I suggested Telescopic Vision (with an unusual background perk for some non-human ancestry) and Deadeye justified by treating Telescopic Vision as a scope, as something kinda cool that would give her net +2 on aimed shots. For those 7 points, she could have had Technique Mastery and 4 more levels of Mounted Archery, which works with snapshots too, and 2pt left over. I'm starting to think I did her a disservice.

Same for the fencer with rapier and main-gauche, same for the other fencer with great counterattack. Hey, counterattack already imposes a defense penalty, but 4 more levels would increase it by 2 with Deceptive Attack. I'm running with 100pt PCs and a lot tied up in mandatory traits, so every point counts!
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Old 08-27-2016, 01:16 AM   #8
evileeyore
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gef View Post
I don't take your point.
Sure, because you're looking at this in a 'vacuum', the infinite plane of "theory space".

Let's look at the styles where TM is allowed in RAW:
Capoeira (Kicking), Chin Na (Arm Lock and Finger Lock), Judo (Judo Throw and Sacrifice Throw), Muay Thai (Knee Strike), Savate (Kicking), Shaolin Kung Fu (Any kicking technique), Tae Kwon Do (Any kicking technique), Wushu (Any Spinning Attack).


You should recognize three things:

1 - TM isn't very common.
2 - It's thematically appropriate, not only should practitioners of those styles be using those specific techniques more often than regular attacks, they should be better at doing those techniques than regular attacks.
3 - Those are techniques are such that by practicing them, the practitioner could reasonable only get better at doing them.

It's not being applied willy-nilly. This means the GM shouldn't be allowing it to every home-brewed style, but only styles where the practitioners a re actually supposed to be better when using this technique than when using their skill 'normally'.



Is Mounted Archery in your opinion the sort of technique that when practiced would not make regular firing of a bow better? Or is it the sort of technique where regular practice will only overcome the inherent difficulties of firing while mounted?

Quote:
It seems broken to me, but it appears canonical, which makes me think that the designers saw something I don't.
No... I'm pretty sure they saw what you saw, which is why only 8 styles out of something like 100 styles get Technique Mastery. It's not meant to be "every one takes it".


Quote:
I'm starting to think I did her a disservice.
That is your choice. But keep in mind by 'disservice' you mean "I suggested she get a +2 every time she Aims whether mounted or not" versus a +4 only while she's mounted.

If the character will never be getting off her griffin, then yes, you may have done her a disservice. (if you're fine with tM being applied to Mounted Archery)

But then keep in mind, for one more point she could also just have a +2 every time she fires a bow.


Also remember that though she might be better at firing while riding, she is still limited in her maximum Bow skill to by her Riding skill (or Combat Riding if she took the technique) if firing while mounted.
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Old 08-27-2016, 01:23 AM   #9
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

evileeyore seems to be missing the point. The full point investment in kicking is 8 points: 3 points to buy it up to skill, 1 point for the perk, and 4 points to buy it to skill+4. Yes, investing 5 of the points to get it to skill+1 is going to be worse than buying another point of skill most of the time, but the difference really becomes apparent when you spend the next 3 points to get it up to skill+4.
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Old 08-27-2016, 10:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Technique Mastery guidelines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
evileeyore seems to be missing the point.
No, I'm not.

I get that point. What I'm trying to point out is that Technique Mastery sees limited use in the RAW for a reason, you can't just look at it on the Featureless Plane of Game Theory and say "This is broken, so why shouldn't I just use it everywhere?"

It is a very potent Perk and as such It Shouldn't Be Used Everywhere.
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