What TL is the original Star Trek?

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

We're assuming the obvious here, which is to say we're overlooking the obvious:

What late-1960s writers called the "transtator" is quite simply a microchip. They just weren't aware in 1967 that the next stage would be called "microchip" and came up with a term they thought would fit the next phase.

I rather like this theory.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

4) Spock was overestimating the risks and underestimating the difficulty the Iotians faced in copying what was to him a trivially obvious device.
5) The scriptwriters came up with a throwaway line to justify setting Kirk up to make a joke, and didn't think about its implications (not the only line in an original Trek script that raises such questions; TV Tropes lists a number of them). When the implications were raised by the sequel script, the producers chose not to pursue them, and thus defined the whole issue as noncanonical (and assumed that people would just let it go).
6) The transtator itself was invented at TL9, and is still the basis for TL10 signal processing. After all, we routinely use lead-acid batteries, generators, and relays, all of which are TL6 or earlier (the relay actually was an outgrowth of TL5 telegraphy).

The only problem with option 6 is the very high penalties (-15) for a TL6 civilization to so anything with a TL9 device that has fallen in to their lap.

Originally Posted by Phantasm

We're assuming the obvious here, which is to say we're overlooking the obvious:

What late-1960s writers called the "transtator" is quite simply a microchip. They just weren't aware in 1967 that the next stage would be called "microchip" and came up with a term they thought would fit the next phase.

The problem is that the "microchip" has such a huge range that it is doubtful the Iotians could do much with what was in the communicator as a i7 intel chip is vastly different in terms of design, layout, and manufacture from a Intel 4004.

This does bring up two major issues with GURPS TL scale
1) it just doesn't handle transitional technology very well.
2) it doesn't handle the changes of technology within a TL very well.

Compare the Altair 8800 (1974) to the Apple II (1977); if we count them as personal computers then they have major differences despite they being both TL8 devices within a few years of each other.

[dataweaver]

That's a problem when one person is making one attempt. When a whole society is making multiple attempts, even a -15ish penalty becomes much less impressive. And again, if the society has a knack for reverse-engineering things they might not be suffering the full -15 penalty.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think that's an accurate description. The Enterprise arrives at Vulcan, and Kirk, McCoy, and Spock beam down. They interact with T'Pol, and seemingly make a good impression on her; she says that Spock chose his friends well. McCoy beams up with Kirk's "body," and a few minutes later Spock beams up. And not long after that, Uhura relays a message to Kirk from Starfleet Command telling him that he's ordered to go to Vulcan—which seemingly means he's forgiven for going there without orders.

Even if you allow some dramatic license about how quickly the message got there, it looks as if T'Pol got onto the communicator with Earth and asked for Kirk's arrival to be approved, and Starfleet made the decision and sent it back, with only minutes delay.

Also, during Kirk's earlier conversation with the Admiral, there were no perceptible delays between their remarks.

TOS was pretty inconsistent on communication times. Subspace radio was supposed to be slow (though faster than ships.) That was deliberate - they wanted Kirk to be on his own for important decisions. They did have episodes when communications were almost instantaneous but also episodes where communications could take hours, days or weeks. The episode "Balance of Terror" has Kirk sending an urgent message to Starfleet Command - he doesn't get an answer until the end of the episode. My own retcon would be to assume that major planets and starbases have elaborate, fixed communication systems that allow for real time conversation across interstellar distances. But if you're out of that network, you face a significant time lag.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by whswhs

TL9: ST: TOS lacks neural interfaces, mobile robots, and any significant use of body armor or powered exoskeleta. It has antimatter and uses in in space propulsion, and it has at least significant advances in bioscience. It has cheap access to orbit using SSTO shuttles; it doesn't seem to have space elevators. It no longer uses conventional firearms, and the listed TL9 energy weapons don't seem to be in use.

I'd note that in Star Trek computer interfaces are advanced enough for conversational interaction which I would call TL 9. There are also reliable lie detectors but I don't know what TL that would be.

Mobile robots may be a matter of style - some kind of technology is putting things in the various food dispensers and we don't see anyone cleaning the Enterprise. Also, the Enterprise was able to synthesize an authentic Gestapo uniform in a matter of minutes. Perhaps they prefer robots out of sight. They probably have no need for space elevators.

That said, TL10 sounds right with antigravity and FTL travel being TL 9^ technologies. Note that the pilot "The Cage" suggests a relatively recent breakthrough in FTL travel so early TL 10 might be more accurate.

I should pick up a copy of ultra tech. I suspect I'd disagree with how easy they assume some technological challenges are.

[Jack Sawyer]

Part of the problem with any hierarchy is that it works imperfectly with things that may not be designed with said hierarchy in mind. Not without some kludging, at least. In Trek's case, I think two other factors complicate things:

1 - Star Trek 'continuity' - as some have noted - is spread out amongst many decades and multiple series of varying relationship/consistency and differing generational views about what is 'futuristic'

2 - Much of Star Trek carries the perception (if not stigma) of being butter-soft magical-pseudoscience technology. Not without reason (given treknobabble) but I've seen this attitude cause people to treat Star Trek as literally 'Wizards who could do anything' much like a memetic batman.

Allowing for the fact that any 'TL' designation will carry a huge degree of 'personal perception' the 'best' fit (and I use this term loosely) would be TL11 with some overlap into 10 and 12. And that's probably as specific as you're going to get it, because Trek is expansive enough you could always find at least one example that would challenge that view.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Infornific

I'd note that in Star Trek computer interfaces are advanced enough for conversational interaction which I would call TL 9. There are also reliable lie detectors but I don't know what TL that would be.

Mobile robots may be a matter of style - some kind of technology is putting things in the various food dispensers and we don't see anyone cleaning the Enterprise. Also, the Enterprise was able to synthesize an authentic Gestapo uniform in a matter of minutes. Perhaps they prefer robots out of sight. They probably have no need for space elevators.

I'm not trying to reason about the details of Federation tech. I'm just going down the lists and noting what things on them are visibly present or absent. There are a lot of things that wouldn't be visible in the original Trek setting.

I'm not sure I would require TL9 for conversational interaction. Have you talked with Siri lately? As for reliable lie detectors, I think I'd personally call them TL^, but YMMV.

That said, TL10 sounds right with antigravity and FTL travel being TL 9^ technologies. Note that the pilot "The Cage" suggests a relatively recent breakthrough in FTL travel so early TL 10 might be more accurate.

History of science/technology is kind of a background subject in original Trek. But it's looking to me like they're too advanced to be TL(7+2) and mostly not advanced enough to be TL(7+4), except for their weapons—perhaps the peaceful Federation has concluded that having more ships and bigger guns than anyone else is the way to peace?

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by maximara

But unless that is a wildcard talent Iotians are still subject to TL penalties which has been why I have been pointing out the -15 for TL6 to take apart a TL9 communicator (without destroying it in the process), understand the transtator (another skill at -15), and duplicate that part (yet another skill at -15) per Basic Set pg 168.

You are left with three options:
1) The Iotians have a wildcard talent/skill with regards to technology based skills. There is no evidence of this.
2) Have totally insanely high skills in the reverent Tech skills. Again there is no evidence of this.

They took a book on Chicago gangs in the 1920s, and managed to completely replicate every technological advance in a century, having only began industrialization before hand. If that isn't exceptional tech skill, I don't know what counts.

Originally Posted by whswhs

perhaps the peaceful Federation has concluded that having more ships and bigger guns than anyone else is the way to peace?

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'm not trying to reason about the details of Federation tech. I'm just going down the lists and noting what things on them are visibly present or absent. There are a lot of things that wouldn't be visible in the original Trek setting.

I'm not sure I would require TL9 for conversational interaction. Have you talked with Siri lately? As for reliable lie detectors, I think I'd personally call them TL^, but YMMV.



History of science/technology is kind of a background subject in original Trek. But it's looking to me like they're too advanced to be TL(7+2) and mostly not advanced enough to be TL(7+4), except for their weapons—perhaps the peaceful Federation has concluded that having more ships and bigger guns than anyone else is the way to peace?

Aren't we technically late TL 8? Siri as it is now could be proto-TL9. The Enterprise's computer was capable of more sophisticated conversation. But I'm nitpicking. Not sure I agree on lie detectors - that strikes me as a little more doable (with brain scanning technology) than a multi-century lifespan.

Getting back to the robots, we know from canon that the routine tasks are automated aboard the Enterprise - no cook, no janitor, etc. How they're automated is unclear. But TOS has antigravity, force field, tractor and pressor beam technology. Perhaps low powered systems are built into the ship so the decks are routines swept and polished by tractor and pressor beams run by the ship's computer? In which case there is no need for mobile robots and mobile robots might be obsolete. This is less of a retcon and more an attempt to fill in the blanks. But it would be interesting if a Romulan War era ship did have robots scuttling about.

[dataweaver]

We're technically mid-TL8: it started in the 80s; and according to UT's medium progression schedule, we aren't sure to hot TL9 for at least another decade. (Though reality checking is bound to revise this.)