Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I think several of us have done that. I remember the 12 to 13 rule, for what-ever reason...I found my old analysis, which disagrees. That sheet roughly says you to lower the total of the two numbers until they are below 25, unless facing a defense of 14+, in which case you want an attack of 16+ in order to fish for crits. Might be worth presenting that formally sometime.

Found the post. The attacker usually doesn't know what the target's defense is; also, those cases where something other than 12/13 is actually better, it's only by a bit, so just always aiming for those is typically your best bet.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Makes sense. And reminds me that my proper test is against an array of "Typical" mooks a GM might throw at the character. I wonder how HT effects that... one more thing to look at.

Potentially a lot - when I ran a test fight for my spear-wielding Swashbuckler, Shigran (alongside some hirelings) against some nautamadr (Nordlond minotaurs), the blasted things just absolutely refused to go down until they were at -5xHP, thanks to a combination of decent starting HT and a big boost from Berserk (the only failed Death Check of the battle was at the very beginning, where one of them got sneak-attacked before they could berserk).

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Varyon

[url=http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=2404367&postcount=20]
Potentially a lot - when I ran a test fight for my spear-wielding Swashbuckler, Shigran (alongside some hirelings) against some nautamadr (Nordlond minotaurs), the blasted things just absolutely refused to go down until they were at -5xHP, thanks to a combination of decent starting HT and a big boost from Berserk (the only failed Death Check of the battle was at the very beginning, where one of them got sneak-attacked before they could berserk).

Berserk is a PITA. It is like a Monty Python sketch, "you will cut down the mightiest tree in the forest WITH A HERRING!"

[Plane]

while we're talking about wealth - realisitically this will help secure you an adequate amount of food and sleep so you'll be in ideal conditions for your fight

Those with low wealth might be underfed and not getting a full night's sleep and suffering fatigue penalties during combat for this reason.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Makes sense. And reminds me that my proper test is against an array of "Typical" mooks a GM might throw at the character. I wonder how HT effects that... one more thing to look at.

The answer is it's weird and bumpy. Here are some simulation results:

HT10SK20F - 57.45417%
HT11SK18F - 42.62896%
HT12SK16F - 29.91605%
HT13SK14F - 31.06129%
HT14SK12F - 31.29599%
HT15SK10F - 29.55386%

HT10SK20S - 42.55186%

Sure, the HT10SK20 guy is a big cut above the others, but it isn't a flat decay like ST is. The HT13 and HT14 guys are at this odd peak after. And it's worth noting that HT10 guy gets comparable results to HT11 when moving second, something that's going to be happening about 50% of the time (HT10 guy is decidedly average besides the sky high skill).

And here's some direct comparisons of ST, HT and Skill. Merc has a skill of 14, Mook has a skill of 10, Master has a skill of 20, SuperMaster has a skill of 30. These are all put up against a Merc with 20 pts. of extra traits (some mix of ST, HT, and Skill)

First Hit vs. Mook	
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	93.70%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	91.76%
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	90.89%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	89.66%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	89.29%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	88.91%
First Hit vs. Merc	
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	82.81%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	75.70%
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	74.69%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	69.61%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	69.46%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	69.42%
First Hit vs. Master	
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	43.60%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	34.21%
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	33.89%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	26.43%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	25.63%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	25.52%
First Hit vs. SuperMaster	
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	12.51%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	12.37%
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	11.00%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	4.99%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	4.72%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	4.66%
Second Hit vs. Mook	
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	84.76%
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	80.72%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	79.94%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	78.85%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	77.15%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	75.48%
Second Hit vs. Merc	
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	68.44%
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	59.36%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	58.04%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	54.69%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	51.99%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	49.68%
Second Hit vs. Master	
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	27.15%
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	20.84%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	19.40%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	17.00%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	14.94%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	13.62%
Second Hit vs. SuperMaster	
MERC+2SK-0ST-1HT	5.37%
MERC+2SK-1ST-0HT	4.42%
MERC+5SK-0ST-0HT	3.76%
MERC+0SK-0ST-2HT	2.72%
MERC+0SK-1ST-1HT	2.18%
MERC+0SK-2ST-0HT	1.87%

There's a lot of data here, but I think there's a few points worth noting:
1) When being the second to attack, Health is more important
2) When the difference in skill grows less and less favorable, Health grows more and more important
3) Weapon skill remains important unless the differences are grossly mismatched.

[Eric Funk]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Multimillionaire x1 and Independent Income x3 should cover the wealth. LOL amusing and asinine thought experiments.

From the OP budget of 58cp you could have one hundred-man 25%cp fully loyal Ally group, arguably each stats 10 with one weapon skill at 13 or so...

Hmm, for Filthy Rich [50] and II 8 [8], TL3 - 8000$/mo. This could hire six 125 pt henchmen or twelve 62 point hireling (GURPS Dungeon fantasy 15: henchmen p. 32).

These templates in that book have ~ST14, and primary weapon bow/spear/sword/etc at 16 (or ~ST12 and weapon-13 for 62-pointers) ...

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Eric Funk

From the OP budget of 58cp you could have one hundred-man 25%cp fully loyal Ally group, arguably each stats 10 with one weapon skill at 13 or so...

Hmm, for Filthy Rich [50] and II 8 [8], TL3 - 8000$/mo. This could hire six 125 pt henchmen or twelve 62 point hireling (GURPS Dungeon fantasy 15: henchmen p. 32).

I have hired troops a time or three. I have also used loans to leverage royal favor. I have done the same with churches.

I really like the flexiblity.

Basically anywhere money has value it acts like an old Champions Variable Power Pool with the Cosmic Enhancement.

Don't Ask me about Economic No Mana Zones.

[Eric Funk]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Berserk is a PITA. It is like a Monty Python sketch, "you will cut down the mightiest tree in the forest WITH A HERRING!"

After an accidental fireball to the back of our party's berserker my party's meta-wizard learned Force Wall for its instant protection at next opportunity...

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Eric Funk

After an accidental fireball to the back of our party's berserker my party's meta-wizard learned Force Wall for its instant protection at next opportunity...

Good Idea. My 2nd GURPS character circa 1986 was a berserker. In fact our party wizard once crit failed a throwing roll on a lightning bolt...into my back.

We were lucky. I had gone full dwarf. So my Toughness 3 + the non metallic portion of my Armor was enough that the party didn't have to rely on being 'faster than the bear'.

I think Berserk only triggered for him 3-4 times over a couple of years career. But taking down a berserker is an all day job, pack a lunch.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

The answer is it's weird and bumpy. Here are some simulation results:
....
1) When being the second to attack, Health is more important
2) When the difference in skill grows less and less favorable, Health grows more and more important
3) Weapon skill remains important unless the differences are grossly mismatched.

Interesting data. And makes sense. I'm finding the same thing... but I haven't figured out how to correlate ST and Armor level properly yet.



Gurps Combat is turning out to be a fairly rich design space.

I've got my simulator mostly up, and I've been looking at different weapon combinations. One really weird question is if its worth it to use a shield. In duels (I've only done duels so far) between combatants who have spent an equal number of points in either spear or both spear and shield, the edge goes towards... the one with an even number in their spear skill. The exception being that Spear-11 / Sheild-12 still beats spear-12.


I've also been very surprised at how effective armor is. Spear-12 and 3 DR has even odds with Spear-16. Of course, swords tend to deal with armor better than spears, and I didn't give an option for hitting an unarmored location... its a really complex space, even when you can run thousands of simple combats at a whim.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by ericthered

One really weird question is if its worth it to use a shield.

Short internal checklist to answer the question for me:

1. Is our side likely to be outnumbered?
2. Are there likely to be missile weapons on other side?
3. Will combat likely happen near 'our base' (i.e. will I not likely have to hump that big trash can lid on my back for a week)

The more yes answers I see the better the odds I will bring that shield to the party. Or design a character around the X + Shield concept.