Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

[martinl]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

[...] I can't conceivably imagine how one gets to Spear-27 without being tolerably cool in battle.

[...]

The notion of a poor peasant being psychologically and tactically able to handle the situation's certainly a lot more realistic than the notion of one having a weapon skill that high, anyway.

Exactly this. The problem is not that Spear-27 is incredible in combat, the problem is that the CP based character building engine in GURPS allows Spear-27 on a pretty slim budget if there is no requirement for the character to make sense.

"Best in the world level skills" are around 20. Skill 27 is about as much better than "best in the world" as "best in the world" is above "average professional" (12-13). Skill-27 without a whole lot of support explaining that is weird at best. [1]

This sort of thing is unavoidable, as the GURPS CP system is not perfectly balanced (whatever exactly that is) and probably cannot be. Equal CP and wildly different power levels at [task] in [setting] is easy.

In my estimation, the CP system is more like a poetic form (like a haiku or sonnet). It provides structure that helps make a poem work, but it doesn't guarantee your poem will be good. The Spear-27 mook is the haiku:

Spear spear spear spear spear,
Spear spear spear spear spear spear spear,
Am bestest at spear.

It follows the form, and is arguably "bestest at spear", but it is not a good poem, PC[1], or NPC.

[1] OK, ok, the idea of a character who is inconceivably good at a limited thing for weird reasons is not completely out of bounds in certain genres, and could be interesting, but it's a "Aliens beamed all the spear fighting knowledge of 15 separate galactic civilizations into my brain and are now monitoring me from orbit to generate content for the 17th season of "Greatest Home Mammal Impalements" level weird.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by martinl

The problem is not that Spear-27 is incredible in combat, the problem is that the CP based character building engine in GURPS allows Spear-27 on a pretty slim budget if there is no requirement for the character to make sense.

Even then, it's not like something that's not-so-incredible in combat being affordable in CP is a bad, unbalanced thing. And it requires ignoring a fair amount of RAW guidelines.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by kenclary

Even then, it's not like something that's not-so-incredible in combat being affordable in CP is a bad, unbalanced thing. And it requires ignoring a fair amount of RAW guidelines.

It’s an extreme example that serves best to show the imbalance in point costs for non extreme levels of melee weapon skill. Becoming awesome at melee combat (to whatever level is acceptable to the GM for a given character) is relatively cheap, point-wise, in games where that matters. That’s true up and down the scale. If I have sword skill 11, raising it to skill 16 costs at most 20 points, and is going to improve me as a melee combatant way more than, say, buying DX+1 or ST+2. I will gain +3 to my parry, the ability to hit vitals for triple damage, the ability to make deceptive attacks against lower skill enemies or more frequent critical hits against higher skill enemies, etc.

If the GM will let me raise skill to 20, that costs me only 16 more points beyond that, and I have a whole new set of options. If the GM sets the cap at 20, be ready for all melee types to buy skill 20–it’s a small investment to play with the big boys and be one of the “best in the world.”

Which is why I favor increasing costs for weapon skills using the 3e progression. It makes you have to think about whether to put 8 points in that sword skill or spend on something else. It makes DX viable when you need more than one weapon skill. And, speaking from experience, the melee specialists will still spend the points and buy that skill 20!

[naloth]

Originally Posted by kenclary

Even then, it's not like something that's not-so-incredible in combat being affordable in CP is a bad, unbalanced thing. And it requires ignoring a fair amount of RAW guidelines.

Meh, this sort of thing makes good forum fodder. In play, spear guy would find that like any other character that's narrowly focused, he does one thing really well but can't really do anything else.

Spear guy doesn't have any survival skills. He doesn't have any backup skills for when he doesn't have a spear (broken or places that he can't carry it). He hardly has any employable skills. He lacks social skills. He doesn't do well against ranged attacks. He has low attributes for learning anything else. Once you start adding all those things he's no longer cheap spear guy. Rounding out spear guy to a good character that fits "best in the world spear master" will run hundreds of points.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Eric Funk

It just occured to me the simplest solution to Spear-27 guy is a Bola. (p. B410). As long as he /tries/ to parry with his impaling spear and does not Dodge, then it automatically hits his arm.

I can't help but think this was written with either unarmed combat or reach C/1 weapons in mind.

IE if I do a sacrificial parry w/ my Reach 3 staff to protect my buddy 3 hexes away from a bola thrown at him, it'd be weird if somehow the bola traveled an extra 3 yards from where it was targeted to hit my arm.

Probably easier to assume it wraps around whichever part of the weapon you were using the parry.

Originally Posted by Eric Funk

He cannot escape it for at least 3 seconds.

What penalties would he suffer until it was over though? The -4 to DX in Basic Set?

Originally Posted by Eric Funk

A secondary effect is almost certainly disarming his ST10 grip of the weapon.

B410 determines that by "your Bolas skill vs. the target’s ST" so I don't know if that'd happen unless sword-guy has a high skill in bolas.

Cole in TG17 seems to replace all this (the quick contest, the 3 readies to get free) with "Control Points are also inflicted based on the user’s Bolas skill –"

Dropping becomes a lot rarer:

The dropped weapon results described in the Basic Set (p. B410) only occur with the appropriate critical hit roll (p. B556).

applying control points (penalizing ST/DX) after all would not reduce the Grip CP on the weapon in any permanent sense, but there is a lesser known mechanic for this on TG13:

Active control and the shock from pain or injury both count as reducing Grip CP, though shock is momentary

Shock is more well known (a 1-second penalty to DX and IQ) and would come from the crushing damage that bolas do the the limb.

I'm a bit less clear on the whole "active control reduces grip CP" thing.

Like if I have grip CP of 10 on a spear and someone grapples my spear for 1 CP, I'm pretty sure I have a raw grip CP of 10 on the spear.

All I can figure is it creates a "net effective" grip CP of 9 for purpose of applying penalties for insufficient grip CP, including whether the weapon can be readied.

I still think you need to reduce grip CP to -1 to make you drop the weapon, but that could be easier to do if you count as having effectively lower grip CP since those are DX penalties that would penalize your efforts to do Active Defense to prevent a "Break Free" being done to reduce your grapple on your weapon.

Of course the problem here is still that a grapple on a weapon is not a distinct attack to break free (ie Gimme That)

I think for that we need the whole concept of converting damaging attacks on weapons into an inherently disarming thing, like Bladeturning does on page 5 of Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells (unifying Gun-Fu 11 with B401)

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"Power" in Gurps Magic is seldom "knowledge of advanced spells" and prerequisites are seldom a meaningful barrier to that.

What "power" usually means is having the energy(FP or other) to _cast_ the spells you've got and everything can revolve around that.

The other factor in Power in GURPS Magic is often the imagination to make the spells you have fit the current need.

FREX In a lowish Fantasy run in which I was the mage we were in some ruins; there was a doorway that we wished to pass, but it had a glow in said doorway. Was it a trap, we lacked a DnD 'thief' to check but we were very concerned. There was not a way around.

Could I Dispel Magic or Counterspell it? nope.
Shape Stone and make my own door? nope.
Teleport? nope. And would not bring the party.

However the extremely low level prerequisite for other spells I wanted 'Shape Light' (that I almost forgot I had)?

GM ruled that in fact it would allow me (after I described the how) to manipulate the said glow to 'roll up' the phenomenon onto the ceiling like a garage door.

There is how the spells are intended to be used and how much you can bend that framework before it breaks.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

+1. *snip* Player was mulling over things at startup, and popped for Multi-Millionaire with some Independent Income tacked on, declaring that wealth would be his superpower. He's got the best of everything, magical stuff and alchemicals up the wazoo, and shorn of his toys is kinda pedestrian in battle.

*snip*

Sure, people get knighted for brave deeds, but they also get knighted for service, for donating large sums to the crown (see Multi-Millionaire Guy above), for many reasons good or ill ... not to mention those cultures with the concept of hereditary knighthood. The rich guy might never have been within ten yards of a lance, never mind picking up Lance skill.[/I]

1. It was Filthy Rich at character creation...Multimillionaire was further buy in with earned CP.

2. Sadly I am not a knight! Started as a Status 2 Gentleman/Lordling. For services to the crown *cough cough Fund the Govt for about 6 months hack weeze* was made a Status 3 Landed Lord. (said fief being a strong contender for worst in the kingdom, with a current title holder who was on the other side of *energetic political discussion* and de facto behind enemy lines)

[Witchking]

And to actually address the thread topic...

In my experience with GURPS broad areas of competence works better than narrow specialty.

This particularly applies at character creation. In a lot of campaigns (system even has rules for it!!) acquiring a skill takes time and a teacher then points. It is usually easier to increase a skill you actually already possess. Specialty can always be grown with earned cp.

If you find youself up against a specialist you can often find ways to move the engagement away from his area and into yours and the more areas of competence you possess the shorter the move.

My 2 bits.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Witchking

For services to the crown *cough cough Fund the Govt for about 6 months hack weeze* was made a Status 3 Landed Lord. (said fief being a strong contender for worst in the kingdom, with a current title holder who was on the other side of *energetic political discussion* and de facto behind enemy lines)

Pfft. Look at the bright side. The Queen could've given you lands in the mountain backcountry of Thelamie (everything at a 45 degree angle + orc raids) or in Eurys ("They said I was daft to build a castle in the swamp ...").

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Pfft. Look at the bright side. The Queen could've given you lands in the mountain backcountry of Thelamie (everything at a 45 degree angle + orc raids) or in Eurys ("They said I was daft to build a castle in the swamp ...").

Naw just using it to foward the historical discussion. I got a 'title' just a marginally worthless one. Of course it could have been worse; it could have been in a Financial No Mana Zone TM. That said I screwed up the historical model, I was/am not an absentee landlord.

But I am not a knight, YET.