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Old 08-26-2014, 12:56 PM   #41
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
If the GM rules that Wait allows the character waiting to distinguish between an AoA and any other attack.
Note: Maneuvers are definitely not secret. AoA is absolutely obvious.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
Make regular attacks if anyone is Waiting for you to make an AOA, then they don't get their attack. If the GM rules the Wait-er can't tell the difference and has to trigger the Wait after any attack, make your attacks defensive until the wait is triggered, or you run out of attacks. You still get to make your attack(s) more safely, and still get the All Out Defense bonus against everyone else who didn't wait. If they all wait, back up and use a ranged weapon. If you have friends, opponents waiting for you will give them openings.
Competent choices from the opposition can make this work much less badly than you suggest, but if they want to counteract ATR they do necessarily put themselves on a very reactive footing, which certainly can be exploited.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:58 PM   #42
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
This is the reason why I brought up the idea of having an ATR+ETS thread. Too often the two are intertwined in the global subconsciousness, and I guess consciousness too. People tend to compare ETS to ATR and vice versa, at the very least. Occasionally people try to rulez-lawyer ATR benefits out of ETS too.
I suppose I could just drop the topic if I'm ruining other people's fun.
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I have some stuff to talk about ETS that isn't really related to ATR. I'd rather not derail this thread.
I've got enough irons in the fire right now, but if someone else wants to create a specific thread for Enhanced Time Sense versus Accelerated Time Rate, feel free. I'd even prefer you make a comment linking to it here, because its directly related but giving it the proper scope will completely derail this thread (like I did to the last one >.>).

I was just going to suggest waiting until we got to Enhanced Time Sense, but it would really be the same issue there.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:59 PM   #43
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Note: Maneuvers are definitely not secret. AoA is absolutely obvious.
If you take a Wait and specify "When he AoAs" as the trigger and he doesn't AoA (because apparently he isn't an idiot) you lose your turn. Better to say, "After he makes an attack" or something like that.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:11 PM   #44
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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If you take a Wait and specify "When he AoAs" as the trigger and he doesn't AoA (because apparently he isn't an idiot) you lose your turn. Better to say, "After he makes an attack" or something like that.
My current line of thought is to strike 'after his first Maneuver'. For ATR >1, try to have additional friends so that someone else can do 'after his second Maneuver' and so forth.

For that particular bit, I just wanted to point out that there is a right answer on the subject of whether you can tell when someone AoAs.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:13 PM   #45
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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My current line of thought is to strike 'after his first Maneuver'.
If not sure if I'd allow that, as "a Maneuver" isn't actually something the character can perceive or that even really exists as a discrete entity outside of game mechanics.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:23 PM   #46
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The ATR person isn't moving nearly as fast as a bullet.
Depends on level of ATR.
It takes 4 levels of Altered Time Rate can catch bullets fired from handguns, 19 levels of Altered Time Rate can catch bullets fired from rifles, without having DR on one's hands without Enhanced Time Sense. Those are the speeds for moving comparably as fast as a bullet.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:29 PM   #47
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

Here's a new question. Feint is the one maneuver that doesn't work with ATR. You have to take your whole turn to Feint. This is explained in the rules as needing to move at the same time scale as your opponent, so they can respond to the feint. (This is partially undercut by the existence of All Out Attack (Feint), but we'll put that aside for a bit.)

But a Beat doesn't depend on your opponent processing your action and reacting to it like a Feint does. It's pushing their weapon/shield/limb aside with brute force to make an opening. So, should someone using ATR be allowed to make a Beat, because it makes sense based on the description. Or should it not be allowed for game balance reasons?
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:30 PM   #48
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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If not sure if I'd allow that, as "a Maneuver" isn't actually something the character can perceive or that even really exists as a discrete entity outside of game mechanics.
If you can perceive what maneuver someone took (and you can), you necessarily can perceive that they took a maneuver.

It may be defining it in meta-game terminology, but the same goes for 'when they AoA', so I don't feel any guilt there.


I expected someone would object to that Wait condition, though.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:31 PM   #49
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Here's a new question. Feint is the one maneuver that doesn't work with ATR. You have to take your whole turn to Feint. This is explained in the rules as needing to move at the same time scale as your opponent, so they can respond to the feint. (This is partially undercut by the existence All Out Attack (Feint), but we'll put that aside for a bit.)

But a Beat doesn't depend on your opponent processing your action and reacting to it like a Feint does. It's pushing their weapon/shield/limb aside with brute force to make an opening. So, should someone using ATR be allowed to make a Beat, because it makes sense based on the description. Or should it not be allowed for game balance reasons?
I'd be tempted to use Set-Up Attack here instead (although I'm generally tempted to replaced Feint/Beat/Ruse with Set-up Attack everywhere; I haven't because I don't think most of my players can handle a lot of rules options, and I have other optional rules in my current games that have higher priority for me in those campaigns).
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:35 PM   #50
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you can perceive what maneuver someone took (and you can), you necessarily can perceive that they took a maneuver.
Except that you really can't perceive what maneuver they took. You can perceive that they stabbed you with their sword and they aren't going to be able to recover in time to defend effectively, or something.
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