Converting DND 3.5 DC to DFRPG

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In 3.5, DC 10 was defined as "Average"; DC 15 was "Tough".

Shows how long since I've looked at the v3.5 rules. These days most things seem to start at DC15 in d20 games.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Shows how long since I've looked at the v3.5 rules. These days most things seem to start at DC15 in d20 games.

Well some tasks are definitely lower. Identifying a common CR 5 or less monster or many crafting checks for normal quality items for example. Otherwise yes, but presumably that is because Average tasks are supposed to be things that low level commoners and experts (i.e. most everybody) have a reasonable chance of success at; if they could do the things in adventures they wouldn't need to find adventurers to give quests to.

[Rupert]

Low-level Commoners and Experts should generally be 'taking 10', given the nature of their lives, and getting a +5 bonus so your 'take 10' always passes DC15 isn't hard if it's your primary skill.

Even DC20 isn't that hard if you have an assistant. 4 ranks, +3 feat, +2 MW equipment = +9. Add an assistant's +2 'assist another' (and if they've got the same stuff as you, they succeed even on a '1'), and you can take 10 to auto-succeed on a DC20 task, such as working on a masterwork piece of gear. That's a 1st level character with unexceptional stats. A 3rd level character can do without either the assistant or the MW gear. A 5th level character needs neither. Better stats obviously allow these milestones to be reached sooner.

But yes, 'average' at DC10 was obviously set there using low level ordinary people as the baseline.

[Rhino]

Another conversion question. The DND 3.5 adventure Necropolis has stats for many doors, walls and other terrain features using Hardness and HP. Hardness is the equivalent of DR in DFRPG while HP is the equivalent of HP. However, I am not sure how they scale between systems. Anyone have any ideas on a conversion formula?

BTW - I really appreciate how helpful everyone is. Thanks.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Rhino

Another conversion question. The DND 3.5 adventure Necropolis has stats for many doors, walls and other terrain features using Hardness and HP. Hardness is the equivalent of DR in DFRPG while HP is the equivalent of HP. However, I am not sure how they scale between systems. Anyone have any ideas on a conversion formula?

BTW - I really appreciate how helpful everyone is. Thanks.

I would just ignore the D&D numbers and use the GURPS values for the same materials.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Otherwise yes, but presumably that is because Average tasks are supposed to be things that low level commoners and experts (i.e. most everybody) have a reasonable chance of success at; if they could do the things in adventures they wouldn't need to find adventurers to give quests to.

Hence why DC 15 is the norm for adventuring tasks. The DMG (p. 31) as DC 15 for clear GURPS difficulty ±0 tasks like stabilizing someone below 0 hit points and doing a fast-talk on a guard. It's pretty easy to get that DC for abilities, For example, a first level wizard can get the Save DC for his spells up to 15 without much trouble: 10 + spell level 1 (best he can lob) + Int 16 (+3) + Spell Focus (whatever school) = DC 15.

Or, let me put it another way: using DC 10 as task difficulty ±0 will lead to a lot more bonuses on rolls than we're used to seeing in GURPS.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I would just ignore the D&D numbers and use the GURPS values for the same materials.

On this matter, however, I agree utterly. When converting, you should make things as native to the new system as possible. The point is to run the new system, not to mimic D&D perfectly. If you're going to do that, you might as well run D&D.

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I would just ignore the D&D numbers and use the GURPS values for the same materials.

Understood and agreed.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Or, let me put it another way: using DC 10 as task difficulty ±0 will lead to a lot more bonuses on rolls than we're used to seeing in GURPS.

No, the converse would be the case. Your method says DC 15 = +0 whereas my proposal has it at -1.

You are right about many specific tasks though. Though not all. Identifying a dire panther is probably not more than +0, for example, but that is probably coincidence resulting from the CR system more than anything.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you are converting adventures meant for low level characters for 250 point delvers having tasks be -1 instead of +0 is probably a feature.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No, the converse would be the case. Your method says DC 15 = +0 whereas my proposal has it at -1.

You're right about the sign, though the amount is -2 (there’s no way lowering the chance of success 25% is a mere -1 in GURPS, as the biggest jump on the 3d6 chart is half that for adding 1). But you’re flat out wrong about most rolls being at -1 (or -2) being a feature; it’s a bug. It’s annoying to figure and remember (D&D phased out many little such modifiers for this reason starting in 4e), it hoses the players who bought their skills at 15 or 18 or whatever and expect to be rolling at those levels most of the time.

Furthermore, they’re 250 points. A 1st level D&D character is expected to be able to make a DC 15 roll half the time in something they’re good at, and he’s weaker than a 250-point DF character. Not only is a DC save common for a first level character, but a DC 15 AC (if you want to think of it that way) is common at that level as well, even without a Dex bonus (GURPS Dodge). A 250 point DF character is something like a 6th level D&D character; he’s supposed to be making rolls with ease. They’re supposed to be cruising through adventures for low-level characters.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

You're right about the sign, though the amount is -2 (there’s no way lowering the chance of success 25% is a mere -1 in GURPS, as the biggest jump on the 3d6 chart is half that for adding 1).

My proposal was just to use GURPS modifiers and base them when needed on the equivalent category label, it deliberately eschewed a rigorous mathematical approach because that kind of approach assumes DCs make much sense in the first place.

But you’re flat out wrong about most rolls being at -1 (or -2) being a feature; it’s a bug. It’s annoying to figure and remember (D&D phased out many little such modifiers for this reason starting in 4e), it hoses the players who bought their skills at 15 or 18 or whatever and expect to be rolling at those levels most of the time.

There are few examples of traps in DFRPG that are +0 to detect and disarm, so that would appear to be a bug that isn't already in the game.