The "advanced math" meme

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Ok, sure, but I think most people would agree with the subjective statement that nothing from elementary school is "advanced math."

Demonstrably that's not true, or you wouldn't have the bitching about GURPS.

I used to tutor at a community college. I remember the one young woman who was taking accounting, and who could not figure out 1% of a million dollars without a calculator. She was long past elementary school.

Bill Stoddard

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Demonstrably that's not true, or you wouldn't have the bitching about GURPS.

Oh? Then prove that nobody would ever consider addition and subtraction "advanced math." You're the one who said it was subjective, now you're saying you can demonstrably show that is isn't. Pick.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by whswhs

(1) The meaning of "advanced math" is subjective. I think that calculus is elementary math. Other people think that decimals and percentages are advanced math.

It might be relative, but it is NOT subjective.

Firstly calculus is not elementary math, and as it not taught at elementary level education.

Advance Math is Math you need advanced learning to do, in otherwards math that isn't expect. from a High school Grad.

it might be easy based on your relative level and ability but it douse NOT dependend on you ability to define so is not subjective to your observation.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

It might be relative, but it is NOT subjective.

Firstly calculus is not elementary math, and as it not taught at elementary level education.

Advance Math is Math you need advanced learning to do, in otherwards math that isn't expect. from a High school Grad.

it might be easy based on your relative level and ability but it douse NOT dependend on you ability to define so is not subjective to your observation.

I'd say "advanced math" is math you can only learn in college.

But anyways, some people are math phobic. If even some simple division is enough to ruin your fun, fair enough. I think its silly, but then I think a lot of things people do (or don't) for fun are silly.

Best way I've seen to get around GURPS' reputation for being math-heavy is to simply run a game for people. If that doesn't change their mind then they fall into the category of people who don't want even simple math in their fun, and that's fine.

[Dewey]

Personally, I struggled with math in school, especially with algebra, and I only got as far as geometry. I have no trouble with Gurps character creation, though I do keep a calculator handy. I've even made a couple of vehicles using 3e Vehicles, just for fun. I used a good calculator and scratch paper, even though i was writing it up on my computer. I'm just trying to illustrate that it is possible for those of us who are weak on math to enjoy GURPS.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I'd say "advanced math" is math you can only learn in college.

that is ruffly where I drew the line too, however were we differ is the optional senior math classes of secondary school. Under my definition they would be Advance Math because it not expected of a High School Grad but would not be under your definition as they available outside of college.

(Plus your definition is weak when you take independent learning into account)

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I'd say "advanced math" is math you can only learn in college.

But anyways, some people are math phobic. If even some simple division is enough to ruin your fun, fair enough. I think its silly, but then I think a lot of things people do (or don't) for fun are silly.

Best way I've seen to get around GURPS' reputation for being math-heavy is to simply run a game for people. If that doesn't change their mind then they fall into the category of people who don't want even simple math in their fun, and that's fine.

Well, that is a tad tricky. Because the line could be what you must have in order to get out of high school. So, in California we had to take three years of math. It was *generally* Algebra, Geometry, Advanced Algebra/Trig. I was on the dumb/non-college math track of Pre-Algebra, Algebra, Geometry...which, as it turns out make me not qualified to attend one of the UCs as an undergrad--too dumb, heh.* Now some people took four years to better their chances of going to an elite school...which often ended up being Pre-Calculus. While Calculus was available in some schools, it wasn't always available, and the only way to get into it was if you were in some sort of accelerated math program.

So...while one *could* learn Calculus in high school, I always saw Calculus as "Advanced Math" without a doubt. And Advanced Algebra/Trigonometry I thought of as a border case since you could easily graduate with a high school diploma without it.

*Too dumb for the UC system as an undergrad, but not to dumb to get a PhD from them a couple years later. Heh.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

that is ruffly where I drew the line too, however were we differ is the optional senior math classes of secondary school. Under my definition they would be Advance Math because it not expected of a High School Grad but would not be under your definition as they available outside of college.

(Plus your definition is weak when you take independent learning into account)

Eh, I'd include the lower level calculus stuff. That's specifically why I said college only. If you're doing independent learning, that's often taking college courses and getting high school credit for it. But it's still college. And it's pretty hard (though not impossible) to take courses fast enough to get past the purely analytical stuff like linear algebra, various types of calculus, etc and into the more theoretical stuff before you graduate high school.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Oh? Then prove that nobody would ever consider addition and subtraction "advanced math." You're the one who said it was subjective, now you're saying you can demonstrably show that is isn't.

You're confusing different aspects of the argument.

1. What I said was subjective was whether X is advanced math; whether, for example, decimals and percentages are advanced math. What I said is demonstrable is that there are people who believe that decimals and percentages are advanced math. For comparison, faith in the truth of Islam is subjective, but it's demonstrable that there are people who adhere to Islam.

2. The proposition I was entertaining was that some people regard decimals and percentages as advanced math. I made no assertion either way about whether people regard subtraction as advanced math. If you show that some people do regard subtraction that way, it would in no way falsify my claim about decimals!

Bill Stoddard

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Well, that is a tad tricky. Because the line could be what you must have in order to get out of high school. So, in California we had to take three years of math. It was *generally* Algebra, Geometry, Advanced Algebra/Trig. I was on the dumb/non-college math track of Pre-Algebra, Algebra, Geometry...which, as it turns out make me not qualified to attend one of the UCs as an undergrad--too dumb, heh. Now some people took four years to better their chances of going to an elite school...which often ended up being Pre-Calculus. While Calculus was available in some schools, it wasn't always available, and the only way to get into it was if you were in some sort of accelerated math program.

So...while one *could* learn Calculus in high school, I always saw Calculus as "Advanced Math" without a doubt. And Advanced Algebra/Trigonometry I thought of as a border case since you could easily graduate with a high school diploma without it.

No, I specifically meant to include lower level calculus. ODEs, linear al, etc starts to get into hairy concepts. Differentials and Integrals are pretty simple.

Basically, I call "simple math" anything up to algebra, algebra to the first couple levels of calculus as "math" and past integral calculus as "advanced math".