02-24-2012, 10:00 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
[DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
Okay, Im trying to sort this out, cause there are a few ways it seems its been done in various official sources, and I want to unify them.
Most Unicorn write ups buy a long striker, with reach C-2 (or sometimes just 2), Brawling, and Lance skill. When using Lance skill (presumably the Unicorn doesnt need a war saddle and stirrups to couch its horn), it does the usual collision damage, at presumable a +1 per die for the impaling striker... but does it TAKE collision damage? And if so, does it take it to its Striker (considered an arm for wounding purposes), or its Skull? Most Unicorn write ups include NO extra DR, implying the authors dont think they take slam damage if they use Lance skill. This might be balanced by not getting +1 damage from high Brawling. The Karkadann has a normal impaling striker, with Reach C, 1. It just plain uses Brawling-16, getting the bonus to damage from Brawling at DX+2, then the +1 to damage (but not the -1 to hit) for making an attack at Move 7+, and then using the full collision damage +1 per die AND a bonus from high Brawling to get to that full 3d+6 (2.8d rounded to 3d base for ST 20 and Move 14, +3 for impaling striker, +1 from Brawling, +2 from I dont know where). It bought extra DR for its Skull, implying the author figured slam damage will go to its Skull, not its striker. However, it can parry with the striker... which means the striker will take damage if it parries a weapon (just like any arm, or in fact any weapon does) and so should have DR to help with that... but doesnt. Its mentioned a smart Karkadann could using Rapier with its striker, which is a trick Id love to apply to Unicorns actually... I figure its a perk (weapon adaptation or whatever it was called) to do that. Deer get no extra DR, Oxen buy Skull DR. So. Im looking for input: Striker, does it take damage when used in a Slam? Does it take damage when used in a slam and is blocked (which is usually what shatters lances)? Does it take damage when it is parried (the RAW seem to suggest it _does_, and as mentioned in previous threads, there is no rule that prevents this. A striker that can parry should buy DR with (Striker Only -20%) to help with this). OR is Skull DR meant to apply to Horns on the head, implying that Slam, Block and Parry damage should all go to the Skull (and then through to the brain... not a great deal for just DR 2 for free...). Either way, does Lance skill remove damage from a Slam (seems to, unless blocked)? Thoughts? |
02-24-2012, 10:08 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Aug 2008
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
Strikers do not take damage when they are parried. That is certain.
I always just assumed that oxen have extra thick skulls, and that's why they have extra Skull DR. Deer are pretty average there, I suppose (I have no personal experience with either). My guess is that the authors' vision of a Unicorn is that of having a longer horn than a Karkadann. I'd guess that a Unicorn using Lance skill is just to make them scarrier; though I'm not aware of such a writeup, if you can find a RAW Rhino, that would probably be the standard, realistic treatment of a creature that rams with its horn (my guess is Brawling, at best).
__________________
Buy My Stuff! Free Stuff: Dungeon Action! Totem Spirits My Blog: Above the Flatline. |
02-24-2012, 10:52 AM | #3 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
Breaking it down:
The game-mechanical reasons for improved skull DR are twofold. First, the creature is presenting its head. Any Wait or other effect triggered by a slam is likely to result in an attack on its head. Second, when you parry a slam, you parry the entire creature. Here, it isn't just the Striker being parried, but the head to which it's attached. The real-world reasons for improved skull DR are that this sort of Striker only makes sense with a strong anchor. Otherwise, it would snap off. So purely for reasons of verisimilitude, things that charge with horns ought to have a little skull DR. As it happens, most creatures start with a DR 2 skull, which might be enough. But those that do lots of damage would theoretically need thicker skulls. The "missing link" here, if you deem there is one, is exact DR and HP for Strikers, and correlation between skull DR, Striker DR and HP, and potential damage output in a slam. — 1. Unless you add the special Limb limitation from p. 47 of Martial Arts, which is why that's a limitation. 2. Well, unless you critically fail. Or have your entire self parried with a sharp weapon. And setting aside that you cannot dodge or retreat after a Move and Attack slam (p. B366 modified for p. 107 of Martial Arts), or defend at all after an All-Out Attack slam.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
02-24-2012, 10:57 AM | #4 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
I should add that, yes, there are lots of Martial Arts references in my answer, and for that matter lots of pieces to the answer in general. DF simply cites an end result so that the reader need neither consult half a dozen rules nor own Martial Arts to use charging monsters in a fight. That's what DF does – it gives you all the stuff you need, in final, figured form. This means that at times, you won't be able to see all the levers and switches.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
02-24-2012, 11:42 AM | #5 |
Fightin' Round the World
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
Oh, the Karkadann has extra skull DR because I find people whack critters like that in the skull allot, and a well-built skull with a horn meant for killin' stuff should have extra DR in my opinion.
Not because I expected it would take damage in a slam to its skull*, but rather, I could justify some extra DR and I figured it was fair and made for a "better" creature. * [Editing later: Which of course it can, if the slam is parried. I meant, during the course of an unparried slam.]
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD My Author Page My S&C Blog My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog "You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev Last edited by Peter V. Dell'Orto; 02-24-2012 at 11:56 AM. |
02-24-2012, 03:25 PM | #6 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
Thanks guys, that does help. I dont mind the MA references, I have it... just didnt paw through it thoroughly enough I guess!
So, my version of a Unicorn might want some extra Skull DR in case its parried by a (very heavy) weapon, but its horn is otherwise fine. Wonder what kind of limitation making the horn damageable is. I could buy it as a gadget with breakable and "must be forcefully removed"... cause lopping it off is pretty forceful. And it sounds like Brawling is all I need at this point, and the GURPS Fantasy Unicorn with Lance is a little dated. For a perk, I could throw in Rapier for +3 on parry while retreating. So I then end up with this for my Nymph Shaman: Unicorn Ally 187 points ST: 23 [65] HP: 23 [0] Speed: 7.00 [5] Dodge: 11 DX: 14 [48] Will: 11 [15] Move: 9/18 [10] Parry: 12 (Horn) IQ: 8 [-40] Per: 12 [20] SM: +1 DR: 1*, 7 for skull. HT: 13 [30] FP: 12 [0] BL: 106 lbs Horn Skewer (16): 2d+5 imp, Reach C-1, can parry. Bite (16): 2d-3 cr, Reach C-1. Kick (14): 2d+2 cr, Reach C-1. Horn Charge (16): 3d+6 imp at Move 11-14, 4d+8 imp at Move 15+ Advantages: Claws (Hooves) [3]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground) [20]; Night Vision 3 [3]; Peripheral Vision [15]; DR 1 (Tough Skin -40%) [3]; DR 4 (Skull Only -70%) [6]; Impaling Striker (Horn* -45%) [5]; Spirit Empathy (Specialized, Nature Spirits -50%) [5]; Healing (Faith Healing +20%; Reliable +10 +50%; Horn* -45%) [38]; Immune to Disease (Horn* -45%) [5]; Very Fit [15]. Disadvantages: Cannot Speak (Can talk to anyone with Spirit Empathy, -60%) [-6]; Dead broke [-25]; Quadruped [-35]; Social Stigma (Valuable Property) [-10]; Weak Bite [-2]; Shyness (Severe) [-10]; Restricted Diet (Herbivore) [-10]; Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15]; Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innocents) [-10]; Intolerance (Evil**) [-5]. Skills: Brawling (E) DX+2 [4]-16; Mount (A) DX+1 [4]-15; Running (A) HT+1 [4]-14; Stealth (A) DX+1 [4]-15; Survival (Forest) (A) Per [2]-12; Escape (H) DX-1 [4]-14; Climbing (A) DX-1 [2]-14; Swimming (E) HT [1]-13; Hiking (A) HT [4]-14. Class: Nature Spirit *Gadget: Horn, Breakable DR 15, inconvenient to repair!, SM -6, Must be forcefully removed -45% **This means refusing to heal people with things like Callous, Infernal supernatural features (or social stigma), etc. and generally acting pissy towards anyone that doesnt meet its standards of good behavior. |
02-24-2012, 04:25 PM | #7 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
The Unicorn's Faith Healing already keeps it from being able to heal people with the Excommunicated or Infernal Social Stigma, as the gods most likely don't think them worthy of your healing.
Everything else looks reasonable. |
02-24-2012, 04:57 PM | #8 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
Quote:
Though Excommunicated doesnt count. Its Nature oriented, not "Good Deity" oriented. Violating Sense of Duty (Nature), Cant Harm Innocents, that kind of thing would count for the Faith Healing. |
|
02-24-2012, 07:18 PM | #9 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
Quote:
|
|
02-25-2012, 08:53 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
|
Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging
I'd say just give creatures like that extra skull DR because they'd be born chargers and need the protection. Or extra DR to the horn. OK, I saw what Kromm wrote about how Strikers don't take damage, but it seems to me that in any game where you have (a) an attacking creature with a bit horn on its face and (b) a party that includes a PC with an axe, someone's going to try to lop it off.
Or... decide that their skulls and brains are structured a bit like a woodpecker's skull. (Quote Wikipedia: "These include small brain size, the orientation of the brain within the skull (which maximises the area of contact between the brain and the skull) and the short duration of contact.") Then you don't have to change anything. Quote:
...Since deer just push each other away, does that mean they should have the skill Sumo Wrestling? |
|
Tags |
bestiary, monster creation |
|
|