Who Draws First? and further combat

[Erling]

Bob and Harry are both suddenly pulling their guns. Harry has higher Basic Speed. Bob wins Quick Contest. What happens next?

Variant #1:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Bob shoots (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
Harry shotos (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
etc.

Variant #2:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Harry shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
Bob shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
etc.

Putting it other way, my general question is "when standard Basic Speed-based turn order kicks in?"

Which variant is RAW? Which variant would you use?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Erling

Bob and Harry are both suddenly pulling their guns. Harry has higher Basic Speed. Bob wins Quick Contest. What happens next?

Variant #1:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Bob shoots (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
Harry shotos (since QC effectively determined their order of actions);
etc.

Variant #2:
Bob shoots (since he won QC);
Harry shoots (since he lost QC);
Harry shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
Bob shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed);
etc.

Putting it other way, my general question is "when standard Basic Speed-based turn order kicks in?"

Which variant is RAW? Which variant would you use?

I'd go with 2nd variant the Who Draws First? is designed to tell us who shoots first before the turn sequence starts, it's not really used to determine later turn order. Speed is used to determine turn order.

The 2nd variant allows fast draw to do its thing and give it's benefit but doesn't mean Speed loses it value as well.


Bob gets his fast draw benefit (he got to shoot first), but Harry's speed advantage still applies, and comes into effect in the usual way

(of course if Bob hits Harry and there's no body armour in play, he's starting his gun fight with a big advantage)

[JMason]

When I've had this sort of thing happen, I basically just let the winner get a free shot before combat begins. The looser must wait their turn. Using your example:

Bob shoots (since he won QC)
<combat turns start>
Harry shoots (since he has higher Basic Speed)
Bob shoots
etc.

[Anaraxes]

GURPS is usually loathe to rearrange turn order once combat is in play. Back-to-back turns can be exploited, which is one reason whyATR costs so much, and also why Wait needs to be reigned in with predefined conditionals.

The concept of "who goes first in a round" is pretty much irrelevant (and technically even not even applicable, since there's actually no such thing as a round).

I'd be inclined to use the Who Draws First? rules to set the turn order, overriding the Basic Speed sequence, and keeping that order once the quick-draw Contest sets it.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

GURPS is usually loathe to rearrange turn order once combat is in play. Back-to-back turns can be exploited, which is one reason whyATR costs so much, and also why Wait needs to be reigned in with predefined conditionals.

The concept of "who goes first in a round" is pretty much irrelevant (and technically even not even applicable, since there's actually no such thing as a round).

I'd be inclined to use the Who Draws First? rules to set the turn order, overriding the Basic Speed sequence, and keeping that order once the quick-draw Contest sets it.

Assuming the slower Speed wins the draw, where would you put them in the sequence if there are other combatants getting involved?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by corwyn

Assuming the slower Speed wins the draw, where would you put them in the sequence if there are other combatants getting involved?

Immediately ahead of the person that they beat, and behind anyone faster than that character. So, the first "round" might start "in the middle", if you want to think of it that way.

If that bothers you because you can reframe the "round" to put the faster characters last in a complete notional round (rather than first in the next round), the other point of view would simply be "first", in which case everyone else goes in their usual order, perhaps inserting other character's actions between the WDF winner and the WDF loser. But in this case, I'd probably put the WDF loser right behind the WDF winner, both before everyone else that wasn't participating in the quick draw.

Note that Who Draws First really only applies when you haven't started combat yet. (The MA box says to use the regular turn sequence if combat is in progress; faster fighter strikes first.) But even without a WDF situation, a slow character often gets to go first in practice simply because they're the one that initiates the actual combat. Everyone else is standing around watching until the "slow" guy makes their move. This is the advantage of taking the initiative rather than being passive.

(The advantage comes in landing damage and thus possibly stuns and shock penalties before another character, not in the turn order per se, so it doesn't really matter where the round boundaries go. It's debatable whether acting first is even an unqualified advantage. First blood is very attractive, but going later means you get to react to other characters' actions and make the choices about concentrating on one target for finishing blows versus wounding a fresh target. If the combat isn't highly lethal and thus not over in one or a few turns, both sets of advantages tend to fade into the background, so the consistency of the turn order matters more than who goes first.)

[Erling]

Good point, Anaraxes. What I like in variant #1 is simplicity. Got turn sequence - will fight. No "time blob" in which characters act in special sequence before switching to normal order (which indeed can lead to back-to-back maneuver situations, what I strongly dislike). And still their skills help them act first, which is good.

Also I really enjoy determining turn sequence with Quick Contest in situations like Ambush (TS21). Ambushers win QC and simply start combat as if they had highest Basic Speed, then their quarry rolls for snapping out of partial surprise, then ambushers act again. No excessive Wait maneuvers, no back-to-back maneuvers.