High-Tech issues, real-world equivalencies and questions

[Icelander]

I‘ve got a few questions for grognards, sages and other people with too much free time. For the first section, I‘d especially welcome citations to relevant 4e books or PDFs and/or comments from the Powers That Be. For the second, I‘ll be getting into minutiae that is below the resolution of GURPS rules as written , many of which reference Douglas Cole‘s WCM (wound channel modifiers) and his excellent Pyramid article on Internal and Terminal Ballistics for GURPS. The second section can wait, though, I‘ll post it later.

Section the Ist

1) What real world concealable vest does the TL 8 Concealable Vest on p. HT66 represent? In GURPS, the DR of armour is rated as equivalent to the average damage of a threat that it‘s supposed to stop (problems with that can be solved by using Douglas Cole‘s Armour as Dice rule). That means that this DR 12/4 armour is NIJ Level IIIA (rated to stop high-velocity 9mm and .44 Magnum rounds), albeit barely (the .44 Magnum has an average damage of 12.5 points).

It covers the entire Torso hit location, but it only weights 2 lbs. and this weight apparently includes the ballistic plate carrier. Now, I‘ll freely admit that I‘m not an expert on the subject, but I have no idea where to get NIJ Level IIIA vests of that lightness. Most concealable examples are 5-6 lbs., do not cover the full Torso hit location and usually require the addition of an external ballistic carrier (which weights at least an extra pound or so) to use ballistic inserts. Indeed, given that the ballistic fibres preferred by most police departments and military forces have an areal density of 1.1 lb/sf and no practically useful real world usable fibre of which I‘m aware has an areal density much below 0.9 lb/sf at NIJ Level IIIA standards (and there are major problems with some of the lighter fibres, enough for them to have been pulled from service), I don‘t see how a whole human torso can be protected by a vest weighting in at only 2 lbs.

If there really is such a vest, I want to know how to get one. My best friend, a police officer, should not have to rely on the sub-standard gear he is issued if there exist such clearly superior examples. I don‘t want him going out in patrol without one.

2) Firearms that are available in different chamberings are often noted as such in the descriptions. The damage of such alternate chamberings is given, but the new Range is not noted. Nevertheless, I expect that it often has an impact on the Range statistic as well. To some extent, the same applies for variants with shorter or longer barrels. This decreases or increases damage, but surely it should have an impact on Range as well.

On p. HT91, what is the range of a .22 LR from the T/C Contender? The .30-30 Winchester? The .44 Magnum?

On p. HT96, what is the Range for the S&W Model 29 firing .44 Special? What about the 4“ barrel version firing .44 Magnum? And the 8.4“ barrel version, what Range does that get with the Magnum rounds?

On p. HT97, what Range does the Super Redhawk Alaskan get? The 2.6“ barrel is presumably worth a considerable reduction from the 7.5“ one, but no change in Range is noted.

On p. HT99, what is the Range of the Delta Elite in 10x25mm Auto? As far as I know, High-Tech does not include a Range statistic for this round from a pistol platform. And, another question, what loading does this damage stat represent? The FBI „medium“ load or the „full-house“ load originally planned?

On the same page, the AMT Hardballer Longslide has a barrel long enough to qualify for a damage boost (and +1 to Acc without being a Fine (Accurate) weapon, which I think is excessive, but I digress). What does that do to Range?

The Detonics Combat Master is a small gun. Does that penalise Range from that given for the full-size Colt Government?

On p. HT101 we get to the ubiquitous Glocks. The Glock 20 is a full-sized 10mm Auto gun and presumably has the same Range as the Delta Elite in 10mm Auto. The only problem is that I don’t know what Range that would be.

The Glock 31 in .357 SIG should probably have a slightly better range than the 9x19mm Parabellum, but how much better, I simply don’t know. High-Tech doesn’t say.

The compact and sub-compact Glocks do less damage. They should also have less Range, I think, but how much less?

On p. HT102, the SIG-Sauer P226 in .357 SIG should probably have the same Range as the Glock 31, but I don’t have that stat.

The more compact P228 and P229 should probably have less Range. I can guess that the 9mm versions would have Range 140/1,600 by comparing them to the P99 stats given (the P228 and P229 barrels are just 3mm shorter than the P99 barrel, surely below resolution), but the .357 SIG from the P229 has no published Range in GURPS as far as I know.

The same applies to the USP Compact on the same page. It suffers in Range, but how much? It has a 91mm barrel (97mm for the .45 ACP), which is even shorter than the P228/P229, but is that below the resolution or not?

On p. HT116, what is the Range of the .300 Remington Ultra Magnum from a Remington Model 700? What about the 7mm Remington Magnum?

3) On p. HT123, stats are given for the MP5/10A3 in 10x25mm Auto. Are these stats based on the ‘medium’ FBI load or the ‘full-house- load? The damage boost from pistol platform to SMG/carbine is a full 3 points, which is a lot more than any of the other calibres get, so I thought it might represent a different load. But then again, it might be that the 10x25mm Auto was energetic enough even in the ‘medium’ load to require a longer barrel to perform at full capability.

4) What real world knives represent Fine (Materials) combat knives? What about Fine (Materials) and Fine (Balanced)? And the Very Fine (Materials) and Fine (Balanced)? How does one judge what real world knives should give bonuses in GURPS terms? Is a Very Fine (Materials) and Fine (Balanced) knife a hand-crafted knife going for $1500 or are the top-end mass-produced knives good enough to qualify? Are any commercially produced combat knives Fine (Balanced)? What would you call the following knives, both in terms of size (some are on the breakpoint of large/small) and in terms of weapon quality? Would you allow any of them to get a skill bonus for use as an improvised tool (somewhat mutually exclusive with the qualities needed for a fighting knife, but a real consideration when selecting a knife)?

Ka-Bar USMC Combat Knife
M3 Trench Knife
M4 Bayonet
M9 Bayonet
Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife
SOG SEAL Team Knife (also known as SEAL Knife 2000)
Timberline/Emerson SpecWar fixed-blade
Emerson CQC-7 Folder
Emerson SARK
Yarborough SFCK Mod 0 Knife
Jay Fisher ‘Macha’ CQC Knife
Jay Fisher PJLT Knife
MPK Knife
MPT Knife
Cold Steel Recon Tanto fixed-blade
Cold Steel Recon Scout fixed-blade
Cold Steel G.I. Tanto fixed-blade
Strider SMF Folder
Strider DB-L fixed-blade
Spyderco Military Model ComboEdge Knife

5) What real world sight does the Mini-Computer Sight on p. HT157 represent? And on the same page, what real world sight does the Advanced Thermal-Imaging sight represent?

6) On p. HT213, the weight for lockpicks is given as neg. Do higher quality lockpick set weight more and if so, how much more?

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Icelander

What real world knives represent Fine (Materials) combat knives? What about Fine (Materials) and Fine (Balanced)? And the Very Fine (Materials) and Fine (Balanced)?

Regarding materials - don't blade quality levels all go up by one around TL7 or TL8? So Fine (Materials) would be most knives, provided that they're made with an appropriate steel (you wouldn't want, say, 18/10) by a competent smith/factory. Very Fine (Materials) might be any of the handful of high-end powder steels currently used in high end knifemaking. (This isn't much use to you unless you know what those steels are, and if you do, you don't need me to list them - so I won't.) Numerous models from Benchmade, Spyderco, SOG, and the like qualify, which puts the cost of this sort of knife around $200 or so.

Are any commercially produced combat knives Fine (Balanced)?

Presumably, they would be; if they aren't, one has to ask if any knife is Fine (Balanced), and if so, why haven't knifemakers studied (and copied) its design already?

Would you allow any of them to get a skill bonus for use as an improvised tool (somewhat mutually exclusive with the qualities needed for a fighting knife, but a real consideration when selecting a knife)?

As in, a high-quality knife giving a bigger bonus than a low-quality knife? No. A knife is suited to one thing, which is cutting stuff, and if you're cutting things with a knife, it's not an "improvised" tool. There's no particular reason why a high-quality knife would be better at prying or hammering than a low-quality one (and, in fact, a cheap knife with soft steel - whether because of metallurgy or inadequate heat treatment - is more likely to be able to pry or hammer things without snapping, although it will probably bend instead).

It is possible to buy knives that are built extra tough for survival uses, but those aren't combat knives.

[Ogo]

I'm interested in these issues as well, though probably not to the level of detail as the thread starter ; ). First, let me say that I'm not up to speed on the additional writing referenced above and I don't have a pyramid sub, so apologies if this is a dumb question.

But, from what I understand, the designers have a set of formulae by which they translate real world gun and ammo measurements into GURPS stats. Theoretically anyone should be able to look up any gun on wiki or in a catalogue and stat it out. Are those formulae available anywhere?

Basically I'm asking the wizards to let me look behind the curtain, haha...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ogo

I'm interested in these issues as well, though probably not to the level of detail as the thread starter ; ). First, let me say that I'm not up to speed on the additional writing referenced above and I don't have a pyramid sub, so apologies if this is a dumb question.

But, from what I understand, the designers have a set of formulae by which they translate real world gun and ammo measurements into GURPS stats. Theoretically anyone should be able to look up any gun on wiki or in a catalogue and stat it out. Are those formulae available anywhere?

Basically I'm asking the wizards to let me look behind the curtain, haha...

Douglas Cole's Pyramid article is about one such system and he has responded favourably to requests for his spreadsheets*.

The damage statistic is based on penetration of RAH steel.

*Which reminds me that I haven't asked him for it. Douglas, if you're reading, can I have a copy?

[Sam Baughn]

I was under the impression that a Fine (Balanced) weapon was generally one which was custom made for the user. It's just like having a Weapon Bond, but with a Weapon Bond you pay a point and just happen to have a weapon which is really well suited to you (which could be any mass produced weapon, which just fortunately happens to suit your body and fighting style really well) while with a Fine (Balanced) weapon you pay cash and the back-story is a bit different.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

I was under the impression that a Fine (Balanced) weapon was generally one which was custom made for the user. It's just like having a Weapon Bond, but with a Weapon Bond you pay a point and just happen to have a weapon which is really well suited to you (which could be any mass produced weapon, which just fortunately happens to suit your body and fighting style really well) while with a Fine (Balanced) weapon you pay cash and the back-story is a bit different.

Could be.

I just don't know.

Some knives are clearly better balanced for fighting than others, but without buying every popular brand out there and testing them, I have a hard time knowing which ones.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

For an answer to your first question, search the fora threads. A poster had asked about vest/ plate sizes, got an answer from Kromm and that was corrected{:0} by, IIRC, Hans-Christian Vortisch who provided a link to a supplier of vests. Sorry I don't have the time to hunt for it for you - can't even find the retailers link:(

Are you talking about that one.

Yeah, I don't buy it.

There's no link for the 2 lbs. NIJ Level IIIA Concealable Vest.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Regarding materials - don't blade quality levels all go up by one around TL7 or TL8? So Fine (Materials) would be most knives, provided that they're made with an appropriate steel (you wouldn't want, say, 18/10) by a competent smith/factory. Very Fine (Materials) might be any of the handful of high-end powder steels currently used in high end knifemaking. (This isn't much use to you unless you know what those steels are, and if you do, you don't need me to list them - so I won't.) Numerous models from Benchmade, Spyderco, SOG, and the like qualify, which puts the cost of this sort of knife around $200 or so.

True enough.

Do you think that titanium blades could be Fine or Very Fine? High-Tech doesn't specify that they only exist in one quality grade, but I'm not sure that a titanium blade is as good as a high-grade steel one.

Originally Posted by Xplo

Presumably, they would be; if they aren't, one has to ask if any knife is Fine (Balanced), and if so, why haven't knifemakers studied (and copied) its design already?

Because the quality control and manufacturing methods used to produce such knives are much more expensive than those needed for knives constructed with less exact tolerances?

I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking.

It is a fact, though, that the vast majority of 'combat knives' are not designed as fighting knives. The ergonomics of using them as tools are much more important to users and designers than the design as a combat knife.

Originally Posted by Xplo

As in, a high-quality knife giving a bigger bonus than a low-quality knife? No. A knife is suited to one thing, which is cutting stuff, and if you're cutting things with a knife, it's not an "improvised" tool. There's no particular reason why a high-quality knife would be better at prying or hammering than a low-quality one (and, in fact, a cheap knife with soft steel - whether because of metallurgy or inadequate heat treatment - is more likely to be able to pry or hammer things without snapping, although it will probably bend instead).

It is possible to buy knives that are built extra tough for survival uses, but those aren't combat knives.

But as I said above, 'combat knives' are usually designed to be used as tools on the battlefield.

Pure 'fighting' knifes are an exception, not the rule.

And some combat knives are designed to cut different kinds of stuff. It makes sense that a SARK knife would be better at cutting seat belts than a Sykes-Fairbairn Commando Knife.

[Ogo]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Douglas Cole's Pyramid article is about one such system and he has responded favourably to requests for his spreadsheets*.

The damage statistic is based on penetration of RAH steel.

*Which reminds me that I haven't asked him for it. Douglas, if you're reading, can I have a copy?

Very interesting! And I second this request, if it's not too much trouble.

[joelbf]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Are you talking about that one.

Yeah, I don't buy it.

There's no link for the 2 lbs. NIJ Level IIIA Concealable Vest.

Under law enforcement: http://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.asp...=137&CatID=855 .

Gives no weight but areal density: 1.19 lbs/ft squared. Should be in the right ballpark for a vest protecting the front and back of the chest.