[Ultra-Tech] Errata in weapons lists?

[Fred Brackin]

[QUOTE=Allister MacLeod]Size modifiers? QUOTE]

+8 for a shuttle-sized vehicle just barely takes you the 1/2D for an X-ray laser cannon and leaves you quite short on the 12,000 mile 1/2 D of the Gamma ray version (note that I am assuming that the ACC 24 for X-ray and the Acc 18 for Gammas are incorrect in one fashion or the other)..

Also, at 8000 lbs these are relatively modest-siized weapons for ship use. If 1/2D went up for bigger weapons you're really getting into troublesome ranges.

As fo the other things, RoF bonuses could help a little, but as for the braced you're already limited to using Active Sensor targeting for gunner weapons requiring at least a tripod (and I've never understood what All-out Attack with a gun meant, it probably doesn't apply with Gunner weapons either).

Fred Brackin

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

True.

But the Gl 22 isn't that much bigger than a Beretta 92F, for example. There's no reason for the 10mmCL pistol to be huge just because it uses slightly bigger than 9mm bullets.

It does have a 30-round magazine, however.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

It does have a 30-round magazine, however.

20+1 rounds, actually, and they're caseless.

The automatic version has a 30-round magazine, but I imagine it just sticks out from the handgrip like the Micro-Uzi.

[Lonewulf]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As fo the other things, RoF bonuses could help a little, but as for the braced you're already limited to using Active Sensor targeting for gunner weapons requiring at least a tripod (and I've never understood what All-out Attack with a gun meant, it probably doesn't apply with Gunner weapons either).

Fred Brackin

All-Out attack with a gun, in my own words.

All-Out Attack (Accurate); +1 to skill.

Gives up your defense roll to concentrate purely on firing. Lets you fire more accurately because you are NOT concentrating on not getting hit yourself; hence, you're not dodging, parrying, nor anything else; you're also not leaving yourself open for dodges or parries. Your mind and your body is focused on getting your shot out.

So can you use it with Gunner skill?

Yes, of course you can. Even if you couldn't normally dodge or parry, you should at least get SOMETHING because of the simple fact that you're able to calmly and collectively aim, without worrying about dodging from a blow. This makes you INNATELY more accurate than if you were continually dodging and ducking for worry of getting shot in the face.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

20+1 rounds, actually, and they're caseless.

Caseless or not, they are still 10mm in diameter, and caseless propellant isn't necessarily lower in bulk than conventional (though TL9 propellant should be less bulky than TL8). Even in a spiral magazine, or P90 style box 20 rounds is going to be bulky for a handgun, and if it's in a grip magazine it's going to protrude out the bottom unless it's made for someone/something with very big hands.

I'm cool with Bulk -3 for the 10mm pistol, and will up the machine pistol to match.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Caseless or not, they are still 10mm in diameter, and caseless propellant isn't necessarily lower in bulk than conventional (though TL9 propellant should be less bulky than TL8).

True.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Even in a spiral magazine, or P90 style box 20 rounds is going to be bulky for a handgun, and if it's in a grip magazine it's going to protrude out the bottom unless it's made for someone/something with very big hands.

I agree that it's probably going to protrude from the bottom. I just think that the extra bulk is below the GURPS level of resolution and doesn't add a whole -1 to Bulk score.

Originally Posted by Rupert

I'm cool with Bulk -3 for the 10mm pistol, and will up the machine pistol to match.

If the example given of a 10mm pistol is Bulk -3, the weapon becomes impractical and poorly designed.

A H&K USP .40 S&W or a Glock 22 simply aren't that much less handy than a H&K USP 9mm or a Glock 17. Even if the Glock 22 has the 17-round magazine (which protrudes slightly), it's still a combat pistol that is as easy to point and shoot as other comparable pistols in 9mm.

The H&K M23 is 146mm in height. Many IPSC models like the CZ 75 are 150mm in height or more. A hypothetical 10mmCL can easily be 142mm or less if it is designed like the Glock 22 (and without taking CL space savings into account).

I just don't think that Bulk -3 is warranted, unless we want all handguns that are higher than a Glock 17, even by a millimeter, to suffer a large combat penalty.

[David L Pulver]

[QUOTE=Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Allister MacLeod

Size modifiers? QUOTE]
+8 for a shuttle-sized vehicle just barely takes you the 1/2D for an X-ray laser cannon and leaves you quite short on the 12,000 mile 1/2 D of the Gamma ray version (note that I am assuming that the ACC 24 for X-ray and the Acc 18 for Gammas are incorrect in one fashion or the other)..

Also, at 8000 lbs these are relatively modest-sized weapons for ship use. If 1/2D went up for bigger weapons you're really getting into troublesome ranges.

Fred Brackin

Sure, but i think it's reasonable that you won't hit 60-70% of the time at maximum range. Ignoring countermeasures and what not:

Okay:
Skill 13 (decent but unexceptional gunner)
two seconds of aim +2
Acc 18
All-Out Attack (Dedicated) +1
targeting system +9
SM+8 target
15,000 mile range (-43)
= 8 or less. This isn't great, but you'll still hit often enough at this range to make it worth trying, and if you close it actually makes a difference.

Moreover, it's probably a lot more playable. If you want space fighters - or just some chance to avoid being turned into swiss cheese - it's probably a good idea to have the average guys with 5- or 6- (at maximum range - obviously, in most cases the space fighters would get closer, but you don't want them being blown away by battleships!) so that your PCs with some decent skill like 15-16 can score hits half the time and the other guys can't as often.

More seriously most GURPS space combat situations have assumed turn scales ranging from 10 seconds to 30 minutes - so that maneuvering can make a difference - and even if you use a moderately short scale (like SPACESHIPS recommends) this either allows a great deal more shots or a RoF-based bonus. If you assume a 1-minute scale and ships firing 20 times a minute (allowing fore aim) that boosts RoF from 1 to RoF 20, and gives +4 to hit. That in turn gives us an engagement chance of 12 or less at 15,000 miles.

Also, the SM+8 ship is a good-sized medium vessel. But something like the USS Enterprise is probably SM+12 or SM+13. That means it would be hit (assuming one minute scale) on a 12 or less out to 70,000 miles and on a 10 or less out to nearly a light second, which is not unreasonable, I think.

If you're going for greater distances and Culture-type ships you probably want to use some sort of FTL sensor/beam combination that gives a greater bonus.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Allister MacLeod

Also, in a cinematic game, ignoring the limit (as in the rules as currently written) ought to be perfectly fine, yes?

In a cinematic game, you probably want to reduce the engagement range.

Visual observation suggests most cinematic space opera battles occur at ranges of a half mile to a few hundred miles, with weapons usually having a high but by no means 100% hit probability.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Boobis

Though I can't find the actual post, I have a vague memory of HANS stating that for pistol-type rounds pi- was up to 8mm, and pi+ from 10mm. Rife-type rounds obviously hits pi at 5,56mm (or even lower).

It's dependent on the length to diameter ratio and the projectile caliber for all rounds.

For example, for a 5.56mm round, you an LD under 3 gives you pi-, an LD of 3-6 gives you pi, and a LD over 6 gives you pi- again. This is the "flechette effect" - a long, narrow projectile actually produces reduced wounding in flesh due to (I think) lack of tumbling. Special rules also apply for both very low and very high velocity (the rules do generate reasonable results with arrows, as well).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

For example, for a 5.56mm round, you an LD under 3 gives you pi-, an LD of 3-6 gives you pi, and a LD over 6 gives you pi- again. This is the "flechette effect" - a long, narrow projectile actually produces reduced wounding in flesh due to (I think) lack of tumbling. Special rules also apply for both very low and very high velocity (the rules do generate reasonable results with arrows, as well).

What's "very high velocity"? Over 5.000 fps?

And what would be the stats of a Gauss Rifle firing 6mm or 7mm rounds with an aspect ratio of less than 6? I'd imagine the basic damage would be higher than normal, but it would lose its AD(3). Would +1 per die of damage and AD(3) reduced to AD(2) be fair enough for APHC rounds in Gauss weapons? With Gauss ball ammo inflicting +1 per die of damage, pi damage and no armour divisor?

The Gauss weapons are particularly opaque in design, making them very hard to reverse-engineer and tinker with.