[MA] Qs about Arm Lock and Kiss the Carpet

[Ultraviolet]

In our Cliffhangers campaign we had an altercation in a train carriage between the heroes and masked gunmen. It was close quarters battle so mostly unarmed fighting was done.

Situation 1- Pulp Heroine vs Gunman:
Round 1: Cassandra Harker steps into Close Combat with Gunman and punched him, he Dodges.
Round 1: Gunman punches back, Cassandra does a Parry and Retreat (she has adequate room) but ends round at Reach 1.
Round 2: Cassandra wants to initiate Arm Lock follown a succesful Parry, and her Step puts her back in CC. So that's cool, right?
The description in Basic Set (p.403 middle column) of Arm Lock sounds like an unarmed parry of an armed attack, since it says if he (foe) is still within 1 yard. But as in my example the person performing Arm Lock also steps into CC.
Round 2 Second Gunman punches Cassandra (while she has Gunman 1 on Arm Lock), player wants to do Acrobatic Dodge. I say no because of the Arm Lock, player says ok. Was this right?
If the player has wanted to do a Retreat, that wouldn't be possible without letting go of the Arm Lock, right?

[Edit: Never mind, I found those additional rules. It seems we did it right!]
Situation 2 - Beefy Russian vs 2 Gunmen:
Round 1: Khamill Dnepropotovsk grapples Gunman's right arm (the one with the gun). Gunman fails defense.
Round 1: Gun man tries Break Free and Fails.
Round 2: Khamill tries a "Kiss the Carpet" from MA p. 118 and slams Gunman 1's gun-arm into nearby Gunman 2. I let him, using Sumo Wrestling, but don't give him the +1 dam for hard object like a wall. He still does a horrible amount of damage, doe to high ST as well as dam bonus from Sumo. That should be cool, right?
I let him hit the other guy in Torso since he dod not specify. I assume one could take a Hit Loc penalty to hit a specific part of Gunman 2? But would it be full penalty as for striking or only half as for grappling manoeuvres?

[khorboth]

I believe you are correct on all accounts. In situation 2, I would assess full penalties for hit locations. It's an attempt to strike, not initiate grappling, so it should be treated that way.

Side note: Your game sounds like lots of fun.

[evileeyore]

Hmmm. There is nothing I can find in the rules disallowing a Dodge, even an Acrobatic Dodge, if you have grappled someone.

Indeed, if you're strong enough you can do a Retreating Dodge and just drag the victim along.

Keep in mind, your victim counts as Encumbrance, so your Dodge will* be penalized.



*Unless you're really, really, really strong. ST 30 is good point to get to if you want to ignore your foe's weight when you're grappling...

[cdru]

Nothing prevents acrobatic dodges while grappling. In fact, if you can easily drag your victim without a quick contest, then you can retreat

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by cdru

Nothing prevents acrobatic dodges while grappling. In fact, if you can easily drag your victim without a quick contest, then you can retreat

But this would make it easier to move a Grappled foe around when just doing a simple Dodge rather than using the "Moving people around" rules from MA118.
This sounds wrong to me.
Even if you had to make the same kind of roll for a Dodge and Retreat as in "Moving people around this would make it a free action during a foe's turn rather than count as your action in your own turn.

My GM interpretation would be no Retreat while holding a Grapple. Either use basic Dodge or let go.

[Maz]

You can do an acrobatic dodge while grappling.

But I agree you can't do a retreat. I wouldn't even allow it if your strong enough as you then simply carry them with you negating any bonus you should get from a retreat.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Maz

You can do an acrobatic dodge while grappling.

But I agree you can't do a retreat. I wouldn't even allow it if your strong enough as you then simply carry them with you negating any bonus you should get from a retreat.

Do you have a source reference for rules regarding Acrobatic Dodge?
Is this a case of actual rules saying you *can* - or rather that *no* rules state you *can't*?

I can certainly image it being possible, in Hong Kong action campaigns mostly...although if an Actrobatic Dodge means you cartwheel or somersault surely it must be harder than doing it without holding on to a foe. You are limited in your range of movement in any case.
Given a sufficiently high penalty only highly skilled actobats/martial artists would ever dream of trying it.
How does -4 sound? That is similar to the penalty for being Grappled.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Do you have a source reference for rules regarding Acrobatic Dodge?
Is this a case of actual rules saying you *can* - or rather that *no* rules state you *can't*?

I can certainly image it being possible, in Hong Kong action campaigns mostly...although if an Actrobatic Dodge means you cartwheel or somersault surely it must be harder than doing it without holding on to a foe. You are limited in your range of movement in any case.
Given a sufficiently high penalty only highly skilled actobats/martial artists would ever dream of trying it.
How does -4 sound? That is similar to the penalty for being Grappled.

In Technical Grappling, my initial draft highly penalized dodge both for the grappler and the grappled. We removed that for compatibility.

If you just can't swallow (and not saying you're wrong) easy dodge while grappled or grappling, you can:

In RAW:

• Apply the full -4 to skill that comes from being grappled to one or both partes
• Apply half the -2 to skill to one or both parties (the parry/block penalty)

In Technical Grappling:

• Apply dodge penalty based on Control Points (you have a penalty to Dodge equal to the CP applied).
• Apply dodge penalty based on ST penalty (this one makes less sense), but is equal to half CP
• Apply dodge penalty based on DX penalty
• Apply dodge penalty based on half DX penalty (parry/block penalty)

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Do you have a source reference for rules regarding Acrobatic Dodge?
Is this a case of actual rules saying you *can* - or rather that *no* rules state you *can't*?

The later with the rules not giving a penalty to Dodging.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

The later with the rules not giving a penalty to Dodging.

The player in question is a stickler for rules and using them to his advantage to the full extent. And if I disallow something which is actually mentioned as possible in the rules I will get corrected. So I'd like to know.

I did a search in Basic Set and Martial Arts

Basic Set p375 describing acrobatic dodge mentions nothing about having a foe Grappled while doing this, nothing for or against.

Martial Arts p121-122 clearly rules that the victim can't perform Acrobatic Dodge or Retreat. And the grappler has no penalties but needs to let go of the victim im order to Parry with a limb used to hold, Retreat or Acrobatic Dodge.

So that settles this: No!