TG: Ground grappling - advantage of being on top?

[Ultraviolet]

If two grappling combatants end up ground-fighting, what is the advantage of being on top vs being on the bottom of the pile?

E.g. Grappler A makes a Force Posture Change (formerly known as a Takedown) to force Grappler B to the ground.
From Standing to Lying Down is -4, but if A goes down himself also he gets +4 tonullify the penalty. If A fails he is on the ground but B remains standing. If A wins both are on the ground but is A then on top?

If B resists with Spawling (MA p119) and wins the contest, both combatants are on the ground but B is on top.

What is the advantage of bwing on op? Or what is the disadvantage of bring below?

I cant find anywhere in TG that is completely clear. TG p8 Weight and Grappling leads me to assume that the person on the bottom looks up the top person's weight/BL on the 'Grappling Encumberance Multiple' and finds the 'Grappling Weight Modifiers'. This number is the penalty (if negative) to all the bottom person's moves, but it may be offset by his Training Bonus-
Is this right?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

If two grappling combatants end up ground-fighting, what is the advantage of being on top vs being on the bottom of the pile?

TG p8 Weight and Grappling leads me to assume that the person on the bottom looks up the top person's weight/BL on the 'Grappling Encumberance Multiple' and finds the 'Grappling Weight Modifiers'. This number is the penalty (if negative) to all the bottom person's moves, but it may be offset by his Training Bonus-
Is this right?

Weight Advantage, p. 9, has you covered. When you're on top, you can inflict the encumbrance-based penalties on the other guy, but suffer no penalties from his weight on you. On the bottom, if you're big, it does you no good.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Weight Advantage, p. 9, has you covered. When you're on top, you can inflict the encumbrance-based penalties on the other guy, but suffer no penalties from his weight on you. On the bottom, if you're big, it does you no good.

But if the bottom person is very strong, the penalty inflicted is less harsh than for a weak person on the bottom. A well-trained person can offset some of the penalty.

Thanks.

BTW this is awesome, I hope to convince my Cliffhangers group to go with TG.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

If two grappling combatants end up ground-fighting, what is the advantage of being on top vs being on the bottom of the pile?

E.g. Grappler A makes a Force Posture Change (formerly known as a Takedown) to force Grappler B to the ground.
From Standing to Lying Down is -4, but if A goes down himself also he gets +4 tonullify the penalty. If A fails he is on the ground but B remains standing. If A wins both are on the ground but is A then on top?

If B resists with Spawling (MA p119) and wins the contest, both combatants are on the ground but B is on top.

What is the advantage of bwing on op? Or what is the disadvantage of bring below?

I cant find anywhere in TG that is completely clear. TG p8 Weight and Grappling leads me to assume that the person on the bottom looks up the top person's weight/BL on the 'Grappling Encumberance Multiple' and finds the 'Grappling Weight Modifiers'. This number is the penalty (if negative) to all the bottom person's moves, but it may be offset by his Training Bonus-
Is this right?

Basically yes. It all about grappling encumbrance and mass based moves which In term of the set up you give (one person on top of the other):

This includes everything
listed under Strength as a Proxy for Mass
(p. 20) as well as attacks to break free if you are
trapped under a heavier opponent!
TGpg10

So say we have 160lb ST10 Skill DX10+4 Wrestler (Baz), trapped under a 200lb ST11 Skill DX10+4 Wrestler (Chaz). So neither is massively heavy or hugely strong, but both are reasonably skilled at wrestling.

For the sake of argument well use the "own weight / 8BL" calculation rather than build derived ones. and we'll assume no gear is carried by either one.

Baz's BL is 20 so his intrinsic encumberance is 0 (BL20 x 8 = 160 - mass 160lbs = 0)

But Chaz's 200lb bearing down on Baz gives a 200lb / BL20 = Grappling Encumbrance Multiple 10

This equates to basic Grappling Weight Modifier of -7,

Now Baz's Wrestling at +4 DX allows him to offset 3 of that penalty leaving him with a Grappling Weight Modifier of -4


First off this means that if Baz attempts to break free and reduce Chaz's CP on him he rolling at 14-4 = 10, same if he tries to change position to a better one than being under Chaz.

And of course on top of that there are the penalties for doing stuff at different postures (although if they have ground fighting this can be negated) and the CP penalties possibly inflicted from the grapple.


Chaz can also use his legs to grapple and keep stability. Baz still has to keep a 3 point stability even while lying on the ground. Now in theory he could forgo that stability and grapple back with legs and arms as he's already on the ground so can't be swept or thrown right? Only what it does mean is any CP Chaz spends on position change count double to further penalise Baz's QC.


So what all this means is Chaz can start to build on this advantage with position change (which Baz has -4 mass based penalty on the QC) and that leads to very bad things if he gets to the rear. But because of the penalty to break free and encumbrance penalty to resist them or reverse them there's a reduction in Baz's options to avoid this.

Now in theory Chaz also has mass based penalty to force position change, but his is less as follows:

Chaz's Intrinsic encumbrance is 200lbs - 192 (BL24x8) = 8

when trying to do mass based moves on 160lb Baz its becomes 160Lb + 8lbs = 168lb / BL24 = Grappling Encumbrance Multiple 7. Which once you factor in his Trained bonus actually leaves no penalty.


So just by itself being on top penalises the person your on attempting to break free and allows you to maintain stability while using legs and arms. But these benefits are further magnified if you are also heavier (and stronger)

Now yes Chaz has got a Slight advantage in ST but it's only one point here.

Tl:Dr don't wrestle people with 40lb on you, but definitely don't let them get on top of you.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Weight Advantage, p. 9, has you covered. When you're on top, you can inflict the encumbrance-based penalties on the other guy, but suffer no penalties from his weight on you. On the bottom, if you're big, it does you no good.

You answered better in one line then I did in umptem!

But can I just ask, the person on the top still has to factor in the person on the bottom's weight for mass based moves though?

Other than breaking free are there other areas where being on top applies encumbrance based penalties (other then for mass based moves)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

But if the bottom person is very strong, the penalty inflicted is less harsh than for a weak person on the bottom. A well-trained person can offset some of the penalty.

All true!

Thanks.

BTW this is awesome, I hope to convince my Cliffhangers group to go with TG.

Thanks. Were I to do it again, I'd make different organizational choices and a few different ways of keeping track of the impact of grapples . . . and make it more portable to DF and DFRPG style games. But it's a solid implementation of grappling, better than most.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Now in theory he could forgo that stability and grapple back with legs and arms as he's already on the ground so can't be swept or thrown right? Only what it does mean is any CP Caz spends on position change count double to further penalise Baz's QC.

You left off the punchline: Chaz can spend these CP to roll Baz over onto his face and take Baz's rear arc, which makes Baz's life very hard.

Tl:Dr don't wrestle people with 40lb on you, but definitely don't let them get on top of you.

For what it's worth, at 170 lbs and 5'8" I had to grapple a beginner who was 6'4" and 240lbs once. I was not allowed to use any joint locks or pain compliance techniques. I was experienced, he was a rookie.

It was all fine until inevitably he got on top of me.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

You answered better in one line then I did in umptem!

But can I just ask, the person on the top still has to factor in the person on the bottom's weight for mass based moves though?

Other than breaking free are there other areas where being top applies encumbrance based penalties (other then for mass based moves)

I'd probably say yes to the first - moving around a big, heavy guy when you're little is just hard unless you can motivate them through pain and leverage.

For the second, I'd say no. If it's not weight and mass based, encumbrance doesn't apply.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

All true!



Thanks. Were I to do it again, I'd make different organizational choices and a few different ways of keeping track of the impact of grapples . . . and make it more portable to DF and DFRPG style games. But it's a solid implementation of grappling, better than most.

My group has a single nay-sayer, because he already thinks grappling rules are difficult, and hates it when his character is grappled - then he feels the combat is over, and bound to end in pain.
Then we have a player with a massively strong but not too skilled character. He absolutely loves the Grab-and Smash moves, but is unlikely to ever learn the rules.
I like those moves as well, but also like to get technical. And I don't mind helping with the rules.
A player, who unfortunately left us to move to Greenland, likes the technical stuff as well. His character used Wrestling and Arm Locks.
And then I have 3 players likely to be indifferent to this.

But the ironic thing about the nay-sayer is that using TG you are unlikely to have our standard goon-opponents inflict so many CP in the initial round of grappling to actually enforce a penalty as high as the standard -4 using the 'old' rules. With active Control equal to halv the CP inflicted it's take 8 CP, requiring strong, well-trained opponents.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You left off the punchline: Chaz can spend these CP to roll Baz over onto his face and take Baz's rear arc, which makes Baz's life very hard.

Nah it's in there (just may have got rather buried in all the extraneous cruft I lathered on my post!)

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

For what it's worth, at 170 lbs and 5'8" I had to grapple a beginner who was 6'4" and 240lbs once. I was not allowed to use any joint locks or pain compliance techniques. I was experienced, he was a rookie.

It was all fine until inevitably he got on top of me.

"everything counts in large amounts" ;-)

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'd probably say yes to the first - moving around a big, heavy guy when you're little is just hard unless you can motivate them through pain and leverage.

For the second, I'd say no. If it's not weight and mass based, encumbrance doesn't apply.

Cool,

Cheers

TD