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Old 11-04-2018, 03:41 PM   #21
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

In the absence of a ruling from SJ, I would tend to interpret the RAW this way:

* The rule says they do double damage for their ST, not double to the effects of their talents.
* To me, "double the damage" means double the dice and adds, not roll normal and multiply the results.
* Calling it two separate attacks would be a house rule. It does seem to make nice sense referring to the "jaws and claws" description, and make sense to handle as two attacks (armor applies to each), but I think if young SJ had meant that, he would have written that they get two attacks in HTH, not double damage for their ST.

So a Reptile Man with ST 16 would do 1d damage with bare claw attacks outside HTH, or 2d damage in HTH. A dirty Brawling +2 attack would do 1d+2 outside HTH, 2d+2 in HTH. Or with a dagger, 1d-1 outside HTH, 2d+3 in HTH.
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Old 11-04-2018, 06:16 PM   #22
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

I don't think there is any basis for calling it two separate attacks; the language says your damage is doubled, and the rules go out of their way to have multiple attacks per turn be an exceptional situation that is always commented on. I think it is clear you are supposed to do your HTH attack as normal but do twice as much damage. I don't think it matters very much whether you double the dice or roll once and double; I would do the former, but if you did the latter it wouldn't be game breaking
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:49 AM   #23
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
In the absence of a ruling from SJ, I would tend to interpret the RAW this way:

* The rule says they do double damage for their ST, not double to the effects of their talents.
* To me, "double the damage" means double the dice and adds, not roll normal and multiply the results.
* Calling it two separate attacks would be a house rule. It does seem to make nice sense referring to the "jaws and claws" description, and make sense to handle as two attacks (armor applies to each), but I think if young SJ had meant that, he would have written that they get two attacks in HTH, not double damage for their ST.

So a Reptile Man with ST 16 would do 1d damage with bare claw attacks outside HTH, or 2d damage in HTH. A dirty Brawling +2 attack would do 1d+2 outside HTH, 2d+2 in HTH. Or with a dagger, 1d-1 outside HTH, 2d+3 in HTH.
Right, ST vs. talents is the ambiguity. Doubling the dice and mods is a great idea. For ST 12, it provides only a 0.5 pt advantage but it goes to 2.5 pts at ST 15, which is good.

"Double the HTH damage that a human of equivalent ST" for ST 16 is 2d+2 because a normal ST 16 human does 1d+1 in HTH, so that's 2d+4 in HTH for a ST 16 Reptile Man with brawling, fighting dirty. A messy form of suicide indeed. (Also, I think you meant 1d+3 for a dagger in HTH :))

The average damage progression goes like this:

Code:
ST  DMG   +2   DOUBLE
12  1d-1  4.5    5
13  1d    5.5    7
15  1d+1  6.5    9
DOUBLE DAMAGE! Sounds like a lot but it's not, compared to +2, when you're doubling 1d-1.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:13 AM   #24
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

I don't know where you get 1d+1 for ST 16 human in HTH. Both old Advanced Melee and new ITL tables seem to me to read 1d for ST 15-16, no?

I put 2d+3 for a ST 16 Reptile man with dagger in HTH as one literal reading of the rules - if they do double damage for their ST in HTH, and a dagger adds +3, that could be read as 2d+3. If they only use the dagger though, then yeah 1d+3, and I could see ruling that they have to choose one or the other... but that would tend to make daggers useless to reptile men... but maybe that's ok...

As for doubling 1d instead or rolling 2d, doubling 1d has a pretty big effect on the swinginess of the damage compared to rolling 2d, for better or for worse.
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:15 AM   #25
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I don't know where you get 1d+1 for ST 16 human in HTH. Both old Advanced Melee and new ITL tables seem to me to read 1d for ST 15-16, no?

I put 2d+3 for a ST 16 Reptile man with dagger in HTH as one literal reading of the rules - if they do double damage for their ST in HTH, and a dagger adds +3, that could be read as 2d+3. If they only use the dagger though, then yeah 1d+3, and I could see ruling that they have to choose one or the other... but that would tend to make daggers useless to reptile men... but maybe that's ok...

As for doubling 1d instead or rolling 2d, doubling 1d has a pretty big effect on the swinginess of the damage compared to rolling 2d, for better or for worse.
#2 under Reptile Man says "bare handed". Although #1 does not say "bare handed", it's parallel to #2 and I think that's what SJ meant.

For ST 15 in HTH doing 1d+1, see ITL p122: "A fighter in hand-to-hand combat does the appropriate amount of damage for his ST as above, plus 1 that is, a ST 9 fighter does 1d-2 damage". This rule is also in Advanced Melee.
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:58 AM   #26
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
#2 under Reptile Man says "bare handed". Although #1 does not say "bare handed", it's parallel to #2 and I think that's what SJ meant.
Ok, so daggers are not useful to Reptile Men, since they have claws and get no benefit from a dagger. Seems fair enough to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
For ST 15 in HTH doing 1d+1, see ITL p122: "A fighter in hand-to-hand combat does the appropriate amount of damage for his ST as above, plus 1 – that is, a ST 9 fighter does 1d-2 damage". This rule is also in Advanced Melee.
OH! Right! I forgot about that part, sorry.

Doesn't that kiind of make it pointless for people with Brawling to ready a dagger for HTH, then, since dirty Brawling would be dmg + 2 +1 in HTH, equal to +3 for a dagger? Or do we think the brawling bonus can stack with the dagger-in-HTH bonus? (I suppose we'd better, as I don't think it makes much sense otherwise.)
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:10 AM   #27
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Doesn't that kiind of make it pointless for people with Brawling to ready a dagger for HTH[/I], then, since dirty Brawling would be dmg + 2 +1 in HTH, equal to +3 for a dagger? Or do we think the brawling bonus can stack with the dagger-in-HTH bonus? (I suppose we'd better, as I don't think it makes much sense otherwise.)
Page 35:
• Punch. You do one extra hit of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Dirty Fighting. You may choose to do two extra hits of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat,

Apparently bare hands only, so you better not be wearing armor as this includes gloves.

Note to all ladies: Please remember that you can't use dirty fighting with a knee strike against gentlemen!
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:04 AM   #28
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Ok, so daggers are not useful to Reptile Men, since they have claws and get no benefit from a dagger. Seems fair enough to me.



OH! Right! I forgot about that part, sorry.

Doesn't that kiind of make it pointless for people with Brawling to ready a dagger for HTH, then, since dirty Brawling would be dmg + 2 +1 in HTH, equal to +3 for a dagger? Or do we think the brawling bonus can stack with the dagger-in-HTH bonus? (I suppose we'd better, as I don't think it makes much sense otherwise.)
Yes, it would seem to make brawling in HTH only useful for Reptile Men.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:10 AM   #29
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

There are characters that don't start with fine silver daggers?

How else would you cut the throat of a werewolf in HTH?

Do were-state werewolves get the same HTH bonus as Reptile Men? Apparently they just get furry and have no claws or jaws...
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:40 AM   #30
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Does a Reptile Man double their HTH damage before or after their UC/Brawling bonu

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Yes, it would seem to make brawling in HTH only useful for Reptile Men.
Also, a brawler doesn't have to ready a dagger...
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