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Old 07-16-2020, 09:34 AM   #31
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

I do not see Combat Reflexes as cheap, per se, just that the equivalent traits are rather expensive (you would need to pay 40+ CP to gain the equivalent traits). I really do see Combat Reflexes and Luck as the core advantages of PCs, and PCs without either are usually not long for the world in my games. In fact, I have been playing with the idea of setting the value of both at 0 CP (and reducing the cost of ETS and higher levels of Luck by 15 CP each) and having the lack of either being a -15 CP disadvantage each.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:42 AM   #32
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
The flaw with that reasoning is the same you have with the Howells in Gilligan's Island - they have multimillionaire but cannot access that wealth. The TL8 character, unless they somehow have access to that wealth, is in the same boat.
I ran GURPS Gilligan's Island adventures at several conventions. My solution was simply not caring that the different PCs had very different point totals.

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If you think about it that is true in nearly every other type of campaign. Unless it is a plot point or there is some form of unnatural aging in the setting Unaging is kind of useless.
If I recall correctly, Unaging in GURPS Second Edition (yes, Virginia, there is a 2nd edition) cost 60 points.

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You have villains who can built/have fantastic devices that if marketed commercially would make Steve Jobs look poor and what do they do? Try to rob the local bank.
I admit I'm not an expert on the super comic book genre, but off the top of my head I can't think of a single super villain that typically behaves rationally.

And as you also pointed out, the superheroes often aren't very rational either.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I read that and it was in regards to first edition GURPS. We are now on 4e.
Except the point costs for advantages largely haven't changed since their original appearances. Combat Reflexes is still a bargain because it's supposed to be common. Luck has always cost 15 points. Magery 1, whatever its name, has always cost 15 points since it was introduced. Trait costs in GURPS have NEVER been based solely on their utility.

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That is what the rarity modifiers are supposed to do.
GURPS does not have "rarity modifiers."

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Heck, Unusual Background is expressly stated as being "a “catch-all” trait that the GM can use to adjust the point total of any character with special abilities that are not widely available in the game world. (B 96)
Yes, which I've said repeatedly. What are you arguing against here?

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You forgot the "of the setting" part.
No, I did not. Unusual Background adjusts the DEFAULT rarity of traits to MATCH their perceived rarity in your setting. You don't adjust traits' costs for rarity and then add an Unusual Background on top of that. That's double-dipping.

GURPS assumes combat-capable characters are fairly common, so it makes Combat Reflexes cheap. It assumes magic-capable characters are common where magic is possible, so it makes Magery cheap. It assumes situations where being able to avoid aging are relatively rare, but the ability is very useful where it is needed, so it makes Unaging fairly expensive. If you need to change these assumptions, you can use an Unusual Background to increase the cost of these things. (You can use a Mundane Background to artificially remove access to these things per character.)

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Magery in a spirit powered setting ala Slayers anime is insanely cheap for what it does when compared to a "norma" magic setting like Yrth. Barring enhancements and limitations it would still cost the same.
So? I don't know anything about Slayers anime, so I can't comment on the ubiquity of magic in the setting. If non-spirit magic is unusual in that setting but operates as per normal magic rules, then an Unusual Background is called for, not an enhancement or limitation on Magery itself.

Magery is priced according to the idea that it is reasonably common where it's available at all, since that's the case in typical fantasy campaigns. If you play in a setting where magic is possible but very rare, the GM should require an Unusual Background to apply the extra cost for rarity. Character points pay for rarity as well as utility. They always have. They still do. Whether they're baked into a trait like Unaging or have to be separately applied like Unusual Background, they deal with rarity.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:51 AM   #34
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I really do see Combat Reflexes and Luck as the core advantages of PCs, and PCs without either are usually not long for the world in my games. In fact, I have been playing with the idea of setting the value of both at 0 CP (and reducing the cost of ETS and higher levels of Luck by 15 CP each) and having the lack of either being a -15 CP disadvantage each.
This is apparently a campaign-specific issue, and is related to how one runs their campaign. Most of my PCs do not have Combat Reflexes, and do just fine without it. Then again, many of the campaigns I run and play in are more Social Engineering related that Martial Arts. The one I'm in currently mixes both; some PCs are more negotiators, while others are more combatants.

I tend to agree on the universal value of Luck, though; I think almost all my PCs have it. Personally, though, I do see having it as an Advantage rather than not having it as a Disadvantage. The heroes in stories often seem to have Luck, while the vast majority of regular people they encounter do not.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:54 AM   #35
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
GURPS assumes combat-capable characters are fairly common, so it makes Combat Reflexes cheap. It assumes magic-capable characters are common where magic is possible, so it makes Magery cheap. It assumes situations where being able to avoid aging are relatively rare, but the ability is very useful where it is needed, so it makes Unaging fairly expensive. If you need to change these assumptions, you can use an Unusual Background to increase the cost of these things.
Which doesn't help if you want the ability to be common; negative point cost unusual background doesn't work well. Make everything cheap and then encourage use of UB would be much cleaner.
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:09 AM   #36
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Which doesn't help if you want the ability to be common; negative point cost unusual background doesn't work well. Make everything cheap and then encourage use of UB would be much cleaner.
*shrug* It is what it is. I imagine setting point costs for GURPS traits was like setting market prices for goods. How much will the market pay? Where's the sweet spot that encourages the characters who need a trait to buy that trait while a character who doesn't need a trait won't buy it just because it's so cheap it doesn't hurt to buy it?

For core traits, 15 points out of a typical 100 seems to have been where the decision-making went from "that's cheap, I'll take it" to "do I really need this?" The original authors' ideas of where the sweet spot lay for the various genres they were working on is where these numbers were set. These assumptions and ideas are legacy now. They've been somewhat modified over the years with new editions and supplements, and are now guided by a more truly universal viewpoint, but the numbers are still basically based on those old ideas.
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
GURPS does not have "rarity modifiers."
Yes it does. Though in many places it uses is uses different terms. For the ones that actually use the very word "rarity" in them:

"The base cost for Resistant depends on the rarity of the effects it counteracts" (B 80)

"Valid categories appear under Limited Defenses (p. 46); the item that can kill you must be of “Occasional” rarity or higher." (B 89)

"The limitation value depends on the rarity of the substance: -5% if “Rare,” -15% if “Occasional,” or -25% if “Common.”" (B 95)

"Cost depends on the rarity of the Trigger" (B 115)

"This is in addition to any “built-in” rarity modifier." (B 118) - Note the scare quotes here.

"Point value depends on the rarity of the item you depend on:" (B 130)

"Point cost depends on the rarity of this substance:" (B 132)

"Find the final disadvantage value by multiplying the point value for your range to reflect the rarity of the substance, as described for Weakness (p. 161)." (B 133)

"Point value depends on the rarity of the item you consume:" (B 151)

"Point cost depends on the item’s rarity in the environment:" (B 158)

"Point value depends on the wounding multiplier and the rarity of the attack:" (B 161)

Multiply the base value to reflect the rarity of the damaging substance or condition:" (B 161)

"The power modifier depends on the rarity of countermeasures against the power." (B 257)

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
If I recall correctly, Unaging in GURPS Second Edition (yes, Virginia, there is a 2nd edition) cost 60 points.
The prototype Man to Man and Orcslayer were in 1985, GURPS 1e (1986), 2e (1987) and 3e (1988) quickly followed. 3eR (1994) on its own is "3.25" with the Compendium 1 (1996) beginning the era of 3.5 GURPS. Everything before 4e is called Classic.

Fantasy, Horror, Space, Horseclans, Humanx, Harkwood, Unnight, Old Stone Fort, Flight 13, Stardemon, Space Atlas all fit into that twilight area of 1e and 2e GURPS. Though the GURPS Reference Screen for 2e GURPS came out in 1989 (Print lag time I guess). So some really early 1989 stuff may still be 2e GURPS material.
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Last edited by maximara; 07-16-2020 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:45 PM   #38
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

Those aren't modifiers to change the cost based on the rarity of the trait. They are modifiers and base costs based on the rarity with which the trait will be useful. Those are not the same thing. So no, in the context in which we are speaking, GURPS does not have rarity modifiers. It does not have modifiers to traits that say "if this trait is rare to possess, it costs more."

If age-related effects are rare in your campaign, Unaging will cost 15 points. If age-related effects are common in your campaign, Unaging will still cost 15 points. How often the trait is useful does not set its price in this case. That would be pricing by utility.

If people commonly have Unaging in your campaign, Unaging will cost 15 points. If it's very unusual to have Unaging in your campaign, Unaging will cost 15 points and the GM may assign some Unusual Background on top of that to explain how you can have it. THAT is pricing traits according to rarity.
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Old 07-16-2020, 03:55 PM   #39
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Default Re: Changing advantage cost to suit campaigns

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It does not have modifiers to traits that say "if this trait is rare to possess, it costs more."
It does not have explicit modifiers like that. It is, however, implicit in many prices.
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Old 07-16-2020, 04:03 PM   #40
Stormcrow
 
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It does not have explicit modifiers like that. It is, however, implicit in many prices.
Which was exactly my point.
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