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Old 01-21-2021, 10:39 AM   #1
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

I'm looking at the Wraith template in Magic (page 160), and the template includes "Unhealing (Can heal with Steal HT) [-20]" and a "Racially Innate Spell: Steal HT-15 [20]."

Okay, so I know there're problems with 4e Magic and especially with this entry, including that the spell in question is not Steal HT (which is actually Steal Vigor) but Steal Vitality (on page 150). But here's the problem with that:

Steal Vitality says that the victim must be "willing or totally helpless" and that the spell stops "when the subject's HP reaches -1 (which automatically kills the subject)."

But ... An unconscious character is almost certainly already going to be at 0 HP or less.

Does that mean that if a Wraith beats a character unconscious, he can't Steal HP from them? The only way he can heal is to either have a willing minion or to grapple a conscious foe into "helplessness"? What does that even mean?

Should I just toss out this template altogether and replace Steal Vitality with Leech? Has nobody ever addressed this problem with Wraith before? (I haven't been able to find any solutions on the forum, only complaints about the book, which isn't really helpful.) The real problem is with how the Steal Vitality spell is supposed to work. It seems basically useless as written; has nobody ever come up with a fix for this?
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Old 01-21-2021, 10:57 AM   #2
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Should I just toss out this template altogether and replace Steal Vitality with Leech? Has nobody ever addressed this problem with Wraith before? (I haven't been able to find any solutions on the forum, only complaints about the book, which isn't really helpful.) The real problem is with how the Steal Vitality spell is supposed to work. It seems basically useless as written; has nobody ever come up with a fix for this?
You can render a victim helpless with spells like sleep, but wraiths certainly don't have a good method. I think the automatic death at -1 hp is new to 4e. I would give wraiths Leech.
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Old 01-21-2021, 02:34 PM   #3
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Leech (Accelerated Healing, +25%; Contact Agent, -30%; Takes Extra Time 2, -20%) [19] would be slightly cheaper, much more effective, and 15x faster than Steal Vigor.
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Old 01-21-2021, 02:41 PM   #4
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Fiction is full of people knocked or drugged unconscious without major injury or even professional anesthesia skill.
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Old 01-21-2021, 02:47 PM   #5
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Fiction is full of people knocked or drugged unconscious without major injury or even professional anesthesia skill.
Yes, but the wraith template doesn't include competency with any methods of doing so.
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:23 AM   #6
corwyn
 
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Fiction is full of people knocked or drugged unconscious without major injury or even professional anesthesia skill.
I don't know where we got this rule from, but it's something we used in our 1930's pulp game. We felt it fit pulp/noir very well.

Victim must be completely unaware/helpless
Must hit the victim in the skull
Roll damage normally, including any dr, including skull
Victim takes no damage but rolls HT - damage taken. If they fail, they fall unconscious but suffer no damage.
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:42 AM   #7
RedMattis
 
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

GURPS Magic often feels like a bit of a GURPS 3rd Edition port, and this extends to the templates in them.

For one extreme example the Wraith shouldn't get 150 points back for having a quite possibly plain-looking ring that they will die without. That implies that the dependency on the ring is more of a disadvantage than, say, being rooted to the ground (No Legs, Sessile) and Cursed. In practice removing a wraith's ring is more difficult than stabbing someone in the heart, and being able to commit suicide at will is a perk, not a disadvantage. I'm not sure I'd even give points for the dependency on a simple ring considering how easy it is to keep it on at all times. Especially since the Wraith has Supernatural Durability and hence can only be crippled (while at negative hp), not dismembered. Grappling it off a creature with Death Touch also seems quite extreme. So you're basically trying to destroy a tiny nondescript item on this thing. For most adventurers just hitting it repeatedly with a magically enchanted sword it far easier even if you know about the ring (and the Wraith doesn't pull a stunt like having a heavily decorated 'decoy' ring).

If you're actually going to have a Wraith PC (or Ally) I'd suggest just rebuilding the template with advantages. As an NPC it doesn't really matter how you build it as long as you know what it does.
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:51 AM   #8
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

It seems to me that being grappled into immobility is close enough to total helplessness. And the wraiths do have +5 ST.

Failing that a wraith could prey on sleeping victims.
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Old 01-22-2021, 02:57 AM   #9
RedMattis
 
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

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It seems to me that being grappled into immobility is close enough to total helplessness. And the wraiths do have +5 ST.

Failing that a wraith could prey on sleeping victims.
I think being pinned counts as helpless. Though with the DF version of Technical Grappling I recall it was tricky to actually fully pin someone if they have comparable strength.
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Old 01-22-2021, 04:23 AM   #10
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Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
GURPS Magic often feels like a bit of a GURPS 3rd Edition port, and this extends to the templates in them.
Apparently the people who wrote and edited Magic didn't have access to the final version of the 4th edition rules.
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