[Banestorm] Elves have never used money?!?

[NorthSaber]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Also, as for the communism vs. human nature issue, I'd think it would still apply to elves, but then again, maybe not... I'm sure elves would have a lot easier time as a general rule... but you'd still have some that would want more, which would either break the system, or you'd have to "dispose" of the dissenters in some way...

Not a problem - we can just take the dissenters and lock them underground out of our way, and hope they don't form a matriarchal community down there, evolve to have dark skin and start worshiping spiders. :P

[LoneWolf23k]

Frankly, I don't see what the problem is. Star Trek's been passing off a "Society that Evolved beyond Money" for a long time now, and nobody but folks who know a thing or two about economics actually batted an eye to it..

Of course, the Federation also had Replicators to provide people with food and basic items. Elves would have Magic to do the same.

[Infornific]

Personally, I think it's much more fun to try to make sense of the "no money" thing and build a society off of it.

Ok, there's been a couple of points raised already why Elves might keep a barter system going at a much higher level of technology:

1. Elven communities are relatively small - this makes it easier to do everything by barter and favor.

2. Elves are unaging, so they have much more time to get to know each other and build relationships.

I'd add a couple more points:

3. Because elves are unaging, that means you'll have some people around who grew up in TL0, 1 or 2 societies. Barter is what they're used to and barter is what they'll want to stick with. Sinces elves don't decay with age, the oldest elves will also include the toughest warriors and most powerful wizards. If your 1,000 point living ancestor wants to keep the barter system going like when he was a kid, you might find it best to cooperate. Of course, this also implies elven society is very conservative in general.

4. Again, because they're unaging, they can think much longer term - an elven baker who wants a very fine sword might reasonably trade 20 years of providing bread for it.

This suggests a possible outline for Elvish economy. The elves rely on an elaborate and subtle system of barter and favors. Keeping track of all the exchanges would give Vito Corleone a nervous breakdown. Exchanges can go back centuries, and an elf may do a favor and wait decades before asking for anything in return. Elves are obliged to help out elves in need, but are entitled to expect future favors in return. The networks extend throughout the world. Elvish communities may be small and scattered but elvish lifespans mean being a century out of contact doesn't have the same effect it would for humans. Traditionally, exile was a harsh punishment precisely because it cut an individual off from his support network. For an elf, exile would be an even harsher punishment.
Negotiating for goods and services among elves would start with direct favors (the bread for sword example.) If that doesn't work, negotiations would move on to secondary favors. The swordsmith might prefer deer to bread, and the baker may know a hunter who owes him a favor. Because of long practice at neogtiation, elves who grasp the concept of money can be frighteningly effective merchants.
The oldest elves would most likely have the most elaborate networks of favors adding to their status and giving them even more of an incentive to keep things the way they are. In contrast, young elves would be low men and women on the totem pole and likely to stay that way for a long time. This would give young elves a strong incentive to become adventurers in the world of humans. It would also mean that the elves humans are most likely to encounter would be low powered. This could result in nasty surprises. Other, higher powered possibilities include exiles. An exile would make a good high powered villain. Another higher powered kind adventurer would be agents of the Elvish community. Such agents would spy on the outside world and help maintain relations between the scattered Elven villages.
Dealing with Elvish culture would be very tricky for humans. In addition to understanding the whole network of favors, there is the problem of Elvish time scale. An elf might not get around to repaying a favor for decades, which could cause obvious problems for humans. Alternately, a human could enter into a relationship binding his family with the Elvish community allowing his descendents to inherit his favors, but also his obligations. Serfdom would be an historical analogy, but this would be more of a bargain between equals.

In game terms, an Elf's starting wealth symbolizes how much of a network he's built up. Excess cash after purchasing equipment might represent minor favors owed to the character and his family. The Elvish network of favors might be represented in games terms as Claim to Hospitality (Elvish Community) and Sense of Duty (Elvish Community.) Humans who enter into special relations with elves would be considered part of the Elvish Community with corresponding rights and obligations. GMs might add a specialized Merchant (Elvish) skill for evaluating exchanges of favors.

My apologies for the ridiculously elaborate comment. Oh, and the economy of Star Trek: Next Generation makes no freaking sense. Don't even try to figure it out.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Infornific

.This suggests a possible outline for Elvish economy. The elves rely on an elaborate and subtle system of barter and favors. Keeping track of all the exchanges would give Vito Corleone a nervous breakdown. Exchanges can go back centuries, and an elf may do a favor and wait decades before asking for anything in return. Elves are obliged to help out elves in need, but are entitled to expect future favors in return. The networks extend throughout the world. Elvish communities may be small and scattered but elvish lifespans mean being a century out of contact doesn't have the same effect it would for humans. Traditionally, exile was a harsh punishment precisely because it cut an individual off from his support network. For an elf, exile would be an even harsher punishment.

In some human societies, the way this works is through "gifts." You make a gift to someone, and honor requires them to make a gift to you. When you meet someone new, you start out by offering gifts. Of course, everybody knows what is a fair return gift . . .

[Gef]

Originally Posted by NorthSaber

Not a problem - we can just take the dissenters and lock them underground out of our way, and hope they don't form a matriarchal community down there, evolve to have dark skin and start worshiping spiders. :P

Well that'd never happen! Underground they'd evolve to have no skin pigmentation at all (and probably lose their sense of sight).

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by Gef

Well that'd never happen! Underground they'd evolve to have no skin pigmentation at all (and probably lose their sense of sight).

Don't forget they'd cast Continual Sunlight all over the cave system. A dark skin becomes a survival tool then. :o)

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k

Frankly, I don't see what the problem is. Star Trek's been passing off a "Society that Evolved beyond Money" for a long time now, and nobody but folks who know a thing or two about economics actually batted an eye to it..
[...]

Well, for storytelling, one can really get away with such things. People in told stories do what the narrator expects.

In gaming, fortunately, one is much closer to "actual events" in that things do not always go quite as expected. That's why one needs more substantial information for games than for a SF TV show.

Besides, the whole point in this thread, to me, is to help imagine what Elven pre-Banestorm civilisation was like. (And it has helped with that, hasn't it.)

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by whswhs

In some human societies, the way this works is through "gifts." You make a gift to someone, and honor requires them to make a gift to you. When you meet someone new, you start out by offering gifts. Of course, everybody knows what is a fair return gift . . .

How about Savoir-Faire (Gifts)? A new specialization, only necessary in cultures where gift-giving is the basis of the economy. You'd roll to see what you should give in return for something you receive, or to manage a potlatch properly, etc. I'm going to start a neolithic campaign someday soon, and this is something I'm intending to use.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

How about Savoir-Faire (Gifts)? A new specialization, only necessary in cultures where gift-giving is the basis of the economy. You'd roll to see what you should give in return for something you receive, or to manage a potlatch properly, etc. I'm going to start a neolithic campaign someday soon, and this is something I'm intending to use.

Mmmm, I don't think that a new specialization is needed. Regular Savoir-Faire includes knowing how to make appropriate gifts. Even down to the level of knowing what's an appropriate tip . . . There are residues of potlatch in our culture (notably in the expectation that the rich and powerful should donate to people or causes), and they shape our concept of noble or aristocratic behavior.

[Archangel Beth]

Believe it or not, I will actually try to get back on topic at the end of the post here.

Originally Posted by NorthSaber

In the original series (up to the discovery of the palace, at least), humans are too primitive to be any kind of threat to the elves in general - Cutter's tribe and the fire are more of an exception to this, and certainly it cannot be said that the humans defeated them due to a higher level of civilization or better military tactics, or even due to larger numbers. Fire = bad.

The humans in the original series were also the ones who drove the Sun Villagers out into the desert (where they were protected by sheer inaccessibility, much like the Go-Backs), and the first Gliders to Blue Mountain -- another "impregnable fortress" made viable only due to their advanced powers and big birdies. Heck, the humans were the ones who drove the High Ones out of the palace in the first place!

I can't think that the elves were really lording it over the world -- the only ones who had their little fiefdom of humans were the Blue Mountain lot, and they couldn't have controlled them once they got enough technology to make big crossbows...


I think ElfQuest commune-behavior comes from their low population, and their low reproduction. Even a non-contributor, especially in a society like the Gliders' and Sun Villagers', is potentially a genetic contributor. Look at Tyldak -- he was pretty nearly unable to do much of anything for himself (although Khavi's comments suggest that he had... some niche, ahem) -- but he reproduced. It would only take a few examples of that sort of thing to make most elves pretty leery of cutting off anyone who might potentially bear or sire children. (The Go-Backs are an exception -- but they don't have Recognition anymore, either, and are considered "lesser" for it; the Wolfriders are "each worth four" in the battle against the trolls, IIRC.)

The whole "elves don't have many kids" meme is a common one -- probably to explain why elves aren't overrunning the world -- and likely drives the commune meme in return. If Lazy Kris over there can one day be a parent, that will justify generations of feeding and making sure that Kris is in at least acceptable health.