Yrth's history and MAGIC - does it make sense

[hal]

Originally Posted by PhoenixPaw

Hal,
I'm sorry.
I really am sorry.
You seem to have gotten it all backwards from my point of view (silly, stupid or just plain wrong as it might be).

ANY one with a magical aptitude is far to valuable to be allowed in the ranks of the fighting men. They would serve an army way way better waiting in the background.

Try running a new simulation, and skip -ALL- damaging spells you have.
Take into account the effect of "Preserve Food", "Purify Water" and various healing spells, including but not limited to "Minor Healing", "Cure Disease" and "Neutralize Poison". With the prerequisites for those five spells.
Make the Megalan army -used- to having those guys around.

Because, I can see the Megalan army being spoiled with always having perfectly preserved food and clean water, and nobody being sick or poisoned, or having to worry long about recovering from injuries.

What happens if you start your simulation there and remove those spells (which were all present in GURPS Fantasy (1st ed. first printing (I checked my copy)).

Are you still finding the Megalan army, without the comforts it's always enjoyed, being able to reconquer a far off province that's employ guerilla tactics?

Sorry dude, miscommunications sometimes happen - sometimes at the fault of no one person, sometimes at the fault of both (I'll share the blame...)

I can agree to a large degree, with the observation that logistically speaking, a Megalan legion may very well have gone soft with all the luxuries granted via the spell casters. I will however note, that military personnel tend to be a pragmatic lot - espeically when it is their lives that are hanging on the line. I have no real issues with an overconfident or poorly led legion walking up to a Caithness battlefield, disarming itself, and placing its collective heads into a noose. History is rife with incidents where generals or leaders have made FOOLISH mistakes based on incompetence or based on a rot from within. What would not make sense however, is for news of a legion's defeat reaching the Emperor's ears and him telling the next legion's commander "You make the same mistakes the other guy did, and it won't be just your head I'll have, but your family's heads as well." You'd be amazed at how well that might help a competent leader's mind on the task at hand. ;)

By chance, do you have a copy of Magus Imperius from Pyramid? The author made an attempt to detail the mageborn personnel as integrated with a fighting Megalan legion. It would be perhaps fun to actually create a Megalan legion, as well as a perhaps a Caithness feudal levy and compare their strengths and weaknesses.

It might also be interesting to try a trial combat using GURPS MASS COMBAT from COMPENIUM II as well as the new GURPS MASS COMBAT for 4e - just to see what may come of it. I remember that GURPS MASS COMBAT for 3e took into account morale levels, whereas the newer versions may not (I've not read it all that closely). One could perhaps just lower the troop quality to represent their reduction in morale.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not really. It might have only been 1% of the population, but it's a much higher segment of the skilled labor. I would generally assume the number of mages available roughly corresponds to the percentage of GDP spent on the military; given that Yrth societies seem to be moderately militaristic, probably 5-10% of the total mage population. Note, however, that that number includes people working in military industries and other support roles, not just field soldiers.

Ok, lets try this then. Assume that the numbers can range between 5 to 10% overall, which would include those mages employed as enchanters making magic items for the leaders and/or troopers, the alchemists involved in potion making in lot quantities, and those who serve specific roles within the Military as it marches (ie scouts, interpeters, etc). Taking the average between 1 and 10, we come up with 5.5% - call it 6% instead just for the heck of it.

GURPS FANTASY 1st edition specifies that the Legions were primarily infantry units and were beefed up with auxillaries from nobility in the form of cavalry (knights basically). Using the Magus Imperius guidelines (you do have the Pyramid article right?), and on the assumption that there are no more than 10 legions at the present, and that one of those 10 legions is the True Dragon Lizardman legion - what might the basics of the mages for the legion be able to accomplish? Which would you be more comfortable with - early legion model based on the republic of Rome, or perhaps one based upon the model used in COMPENDIUM II, or perhaps some other model? I am always open to ideas :)

[StevenH]

Originally Posted by hal

Doubling the food yield in a medieval environment does not come without a price. Harvesting the food takes twice as much labor (assuming twice the yield). It requires twice as much transport capacity (meaning more carts and cart drivers). It requires twice the graineries. If you are supporting twice the population with that food, that means that you will need to have twice the specialists who produce and distribute processed foods (bakers, inns, taverns who turn barley into ale, etc). So, yes, you can make the claim that the use of magic can increase the food yields. No you may not state (without thinking of how it may be possible) that magic will also reduce the labor involved to process the food produced.

I think that the problems with double yield would not be a problem for a society used to it. They will develop the means to make it work. More field hands will be hired for harvest, more carters hired, more graneries pressed into service. After the first few years, all these things will become the norm. The problem then comes when the magic doesn't work, and the population that was dependent upon that doubled yield doesn't get the required amount of food. (Famine ensues, problem solved.) In a world with yield-doubling magic, I am sure that the mages would research the spells that go with it to take care of all of those veggies and grains: Harvest Crops, Prepare Grain*, Preserve Food, etc. Spells don't exist in a vacuum, and just because they aren't listed explicitly in the book doesn't mean that the people won't have them anyway. (I know, that is something of a cop-out, but if you want to be simulationist, you have to take psychology and necessity into account.)

Come to think of it, though, I don't think that the population would increase all that much. The amount of people required to feed the rest would decrease, meaning that a larger proportion of folks would migrate to the cities and become craftsmen, soldiers, etc. 90% wouldn't be required to support themselves and the remaining 10%. It would drop to say, 60-70%. (I don't think it would be cut in half just because yields doubled). It is even possible, (even with magic stunting more conventional means of invention) that they may develop more efficient means of food processing.


*Actually, this spell sort of exists already: Prepare Game. One of the items listed is a vegetable peeler (and an "etc."), which is "usable only on the appropriate food type". This also implies that there could be an item (say, a thresher, or whatever farm tool separates the wheat from the chaff) that is only useable on grains. Or a bread slicer that does up a whole loaf at once. Personally, I think the spell should be called "Process Food", but if that were the case, I can see that some would just end up calling it "Cuisinart"....

[tantric]

I think that what tantric is saying is that it is silly for there to be non-magical priests in a magical world. If magic exists, all of the priests will come from the mageborn. That doesn't mean that there won't be some secular mageborn, or even atheist mageborn (unless the gods demonstrably exist, in which case atheism is as nontenable as disbelieving in rocks.) But the religions will use the magic as one more reason for them to have the ear of god (and they will probably spin it as a "god-given gift", or "divine favor" or some such). I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I think I agree with the concept. What would be the motivation for the nonmageborn to become priests, especially if there were priests already that had magic powers? How could they compete with that? I would think that the Establishment would discourage (actively or passively*) them from entering the priesthood.

In fantasy lit, there is secular magic. In the real world, it's virtually nonexistent. The closest I can think of is Taoist alchemy, and that was still religious, just not theistic. How do you explain magic except as a supernatural force? How do you keep it from becoming ritualized and incorporated into the religion? And, more to the point, who would believe in a God whose priest *can't* do magic, when there are other Gods who have priests that can? All priests should be mages, even if all mages aren't priests - only because the latter is technically possible given the rules. In reality, I can't see the knowledge of spells, the workings, trappings and theoretical underpinnings, having an independent non-theological rationale. What exactly is it, algebra?

The idea of the Christian and Muslim religions surviving the introduction of real, workable magic without co-opting or trying to destroy it is untenable. Can mages not actually talk to the dead? If they can summon demons, why can't they summon angels?

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by tantric

All priests should be mages, even if all mages aren't priests - only because the latter is technically possible given the rules.

I think the problem with this approach is that there may not be enough mages to fill all the roles in a religious organization. The priests may certainly try to attract as many mages as they can to their organization, but the limited number of mages makes competition with other pursuits inevitable.

The idea of the Christian and Muslim religions surviving the introduction of real, workable magic without co-opting or trying to destroy it is untenable.

Well, those pretty much are the two paths varying sects of the Christian and Muslim faiths take.

You said you didn't have Banestorm? Why not? It seems most of your objections are not actual problems with the setting. In fact, the setting seems to mostly agree with your perceptions of the consequences.

[tantric]

You said you didn't have Banestorm? Why not? It seems most of your objections are not actual problems with the setting. In fact, the setting seems to mostly agree with your perceptions of the consequences.

I have the old version, not the new. To me, the religions shouldn't be so recognizable. It seems hand-wavey. If you want a historical setting, play history.

Also, the setting should have SEVERELY limited magic, rather than taking GURPS Magic as canon. I like Magic as a book, it's very comprehensive - it's just that you can't throw it wily-nilly into a setting and expect it to work. Then again, I had the same objection to Technomancer. The canon explanation for magic is that created items and energy come from other universes - meaning a)the universe gains mass every time a spell is cast and b)"create antimatter" should be as easy as "create water". (I don't want to argue about Technomancer in this thread, it's just an example of how Magic should be well defined)

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by StevenH

All that said, I can't believe a decent, well-trained army would be consistently stopped by having their magic stop functioning. The Roman army NEVER had any magic work very well, and they did all right, as did every other army in history. Even if they got used to having magic, I doubt it would stop them for long.

The Romans weren't even willing to fight in highly unfavorable terrain if they could avoid it. There are reasons they decided to leave Wales and Scotland unconquered. The amount of extra casualties, the extra cost required was not worth the reward.

I can fully believe that a Megalos Legion, used to magical reconnaissance through Wizard Eye and divination spells, magical pathfinding through Seeker and the like, magical healing of all sorts, and the infrequent massive Windstorm to break enemy lines, would decide that fighting without all that support just to conquer a relatively worthless border territory that can't seriously threaten the Empire was just not worth it.

[Pomphis]

Originally Posted by tantric

And, more to the point, who would believe in a God whose priest *can't* do magic, when there are other Gods who have priests that can? All priests should be mages, even if all mages aren't priests - only because the latter is technically possible given the rules. In reality, I can't see the knowledge of spells, the workings, trappings and theoretical underpinnings, having an independent non-theological rationale. What exactly is it, algebra?
....
The idea of the Christian and Muslim religions surviving the introduction of real, workable magic without co-opting or trying to destroy it is untenable. Can mages not actually talk to the dead? If they can summon demons, why can't they summon angels?

I disagree. If magic works, good. Literacy works. Civil engineering works. That doesn´t mean that all priests must know those things. Today many people follow religions with priests who do not have studied physics, or are accomplished civil engineers, even though those disciplines work as reliable as magic does on yrth. Magic is clearly not some deity´s gift, as followers of other deities and atheists may be mages too. It´s tool, maybe requiring an inborn talent, and certainly requiring much study. And as it is available to all, independent of faith, it is useless to determine whether some god is true or not. All the time spent studying spells cannot be used to study holy books, theology and canonical law. So IMO there may some overlap, but just as only few catholic priests are jesuits today (which have to study another discipline as well as theology) I assume that only few priests will be mages as well. The church will have many opinions regarding magic, but if magic is a force of nature, it is divinely created, and it is up to man to use it for good purposes only.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by hal

Truth be told? Non-simulationists don't give a fig about the holes. They want the cool hack-n-slash type games or the "over the top" cinematic type games where the audience isn't intended to care about the history of what happened before the start of the game, nor cares what might happen 20 years down the road in the game world.[snip]
Me? I'd like for the world to make sense instead of having a lot of gaping holes ;)

And as I'm sure I've said before when you bring this up, I believe you are wasting your time, because what you want is fundamentally impossible.

In order to work in a fantasy game, magic has to be comparable in power to what really good non-mages can achieve (so as not to make mages useless or totally outclass non-mage PCs), and in order to make it plausible for the PCs to face more than a couple of magical encounters in their careers (and what's the point of a fantasy game if they don't) it can't be too rare. This means it is strong enough to have noticable effects on the world, but can't be so strong you can plausibly use it to set world conditions by fiat of the great mages.

Certainly you could develop a world from that, though realistically nobody could without leaving some holes - quite smart people have tried and failed to predict the consequences of much more minor technical innovations after all. But the real contradiction comes from the other standard constraint on a fantasy world - that it more or less resemble the late middle ages. It can't, you've introduced a new class of not rare people who are about equal in power to minor warlords or great engineers or master craftsmen. Even if you constrain magic entirely to stuff that's useful in small scale combat you've at very least changed the nature of the nobility and of the knightly cavalry and fortifications so visually important for the romanticized middle ages. If you give them comparable non-combat powers, and game systems pretty much always give them some, healing if nothing else, you've drastically altered the basis of at least some other segments of the economy. Anything you do to minimize this is going to generate a logic hole.

[tantric]

I disagree. If magic works, good. Literacy works. Civil engineering works. That doesn´t mean that all priests must know those things. Today many people follow religions with priests who do not have studied physics, or are accomplished civil engineers, even though those disciplines work as reliable as magic does on yrth. Magic is clearly not some deity´s gift, as followers of other deities and atheists may be mages too. It´s tool, maybe requiring an inborn talent, and certainly requiring much study. And as it is available to all, independent of faith, it is useless to determine whether some god is true or not. All the time spent studying spells cannot be used to study holy books, theology and canonical law. So IMO there may some overlap, but just as only few catholic priests are jesuits today (which have to study another discipline as well as theology) I assume that only few priests will be mages as well. The church will have many opinions regarding magic, but if magic is a force of nature, it is divinely created, and it is up to man to use it for good purposes only.

But there has never been a real world secular magical tradition. Also, your point of view is very modern. The people sucked in by the Banestorm were NOT rationalists. How many atheists were transported to Yrth? Statistically, zero. Being an atheist in a world where magic works is pretty hard - and, frankly, being a rationalist in a supernatural world is psychotic. Magic can summon demons and talk to the dead. What exactly was it that Jesus was doing when he raised Lazarus or walked on water? Was that God? What does the Church say about that? On the one hand, you can *really* disprove religion, because miracles don't require God. Where is the cult that believes that Jesus was a mage but there is no God? Thus, the other hand - how can the Church allow non-Christians to perform magic? In what sociological context can you have people who can do magic, but just don't think about or care about how and why it works? Darwin was damaging, but Darwin couldn't throw fireballs. All he did was think and write.

As an aside, in the new Banestorm, do people know there was a Banestorm and they aren't on Earth? What does that do to Genesis? In a world where magic works, suddenly the Bible isn't mythology, it's 100% possible.