Yrth's history and MAGIC - does it make sense

[hal]

From the thread [Banestorm] Normal-Mana Caithness and it's effects :

I wrote:

Originally Posted by hal

Have you ever priced the cost of area spells useful for battlefield applications?

The story sounds nice, but the spells and rules do not support this. Consider:

Name one area effect spell in GURPS MAGIC 1st edition you feel qualifies as being so important that the entire battle strategy of the Megalan Legion will fail if it is not present or does not work. If you don't have access to GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, email me privately and I'll type up a list of the spell names for those spells present in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition.

I'll bet you however, that just about every spell you care to name will have a very short range of effect - mandating that the mages themselves be in the front lines in combat with the enemy as the lines are engaged in battle. For example, Mass Sleep, has a minimum cost of 6 fatigue and costs an additional 3 fatigue per extra yard of radius. 9 Fatigue from a single mage just about wipes him out for any consideration of future combat until he's had a chance to recover fatigue. In any event, that 9 fatigue spell will cast a radius of 3 yards. At skill-5, that 7 hex diameter spell can be cast five yards away from the mage - which isn't a whole heck of a lot in a battle field situation.

Fire? Same thing - high cost of fatigue, short range - nothing that couldn't be done better with smallish siege engines hurling clay pots filled with oil.

Flesh to stone? Nope. Entombment? Not hardly. Lightning? What can a lightning bolt throwing mage do better than a single archer do? If you go through all the spells one by one, you will find that there are very few spells that qualify as being of major import on the battle field - certainly not important enough to make an entire army dependent upon its few mages and suffer disasterous defeat upon the lack of mages becoming an issue.

Frankly? Even if you do go with the concept that the military of Megalos was overly confident and had grown complacent through its dependency on magic (a doubtful issue), after one such setback, would Megalos refuse to learn from its lessons and fail to return with a legion trained in fighting without its mages for support?

Mysterious Dark Lord responded with:

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

I specified in my statement that there would be corps of mages, probably a dozen or more. And I'm sure the Megalan military can afford Powerstones - maybe a 4-pointer per man. The standard medieval infantry must (yes, must) operate in a tight battlefield formation for maximum effectiveness (scattering your soldiers out only becomes effective upon the introduction of firearms with multiple shots).

Say a Mages' Corps casts Rain of Stones, expending 8 EP per man (4 from the Powerstone, 4 from themselves), and casting them so they don't overlap into the enemy forces. This means that each spell attacks 37 enemy soldiers immediately (37 x 12 = 444 injured soldiers). Cast into the middle of their ranks, the formation is disrupted. The officers can't order their own troops to scatter without leaving them vulnerable to the Megalans. So the soldiers, being blocked from retreat by their own troops on all sides, end up getting battered for a full minute. And 1d-1 crushing damage per second for one minute is going to kill someone, possibly as many as 40% casualties. They can sit down and put their shields on their heads, but they'll still be immobilized and the formation disrupted, and they'll lose maybe 10% anyway.

Another example: Pollen Cloud at Skill 15 has base cost of 0 EP, but we'll give it 1 EP per area expansion. This means that spending 5 EP per mage means that each one affects a 6-hex-radius area, or 91 hexes. A dozen mages can thus affect over a thousand enemy soldiers at once with a -2DX penalty for up to five minutes. The effect lasts 3d turns afterwards, so clear out everything with a Purify Air spell one second before the attack. We're looking at a slaughter.

There are other spells, but I think this demonstrates the effectiveness of a Mages' Corps in a Legion. And yes, the troops can get used to winning easy victories. The British military had impressive records against poorly-armed natives. But during WWI, against troops who knew how to fight an industrial war, the result was a hideous slaughter. The legions probably wouldn't know how to fight without their mages.

That's just the battlefield applications. What about intelligence, morale, healing, etc?

Yes, the low-mana zone of Caithness would prove a deterrent.



Since it's one province far away, the Empire wouldn't care about it. Re-training an entire legion for one lone campaign wouldn't make sense to the Imperial hierarchy.

And yes they would refuse to learn from their defeat - look at the history of the Roman wars with Persia. Centuries of the same battles being fought over and over using identical tactics. Innovative generals are regarded with suspicion in ancient empires, lest they seek the Imperial Throne.

That's my two cents. I will not answer any more, lest the board be overrun with a discussion of magical tactics or ancient military history.

The topic is "Normal-Mana Caithness". Will low-level mages start seeking out training in larger numbers? In a low-mana zone, one has to have a high level of Magery of learn any spell at a useful level - Magery 2 or 3 perhaps. In a normal-mana zone, Magery 0 is useful. So would there be a Magecraft explosion of young people trying to learn spells? How would this affect farms, guilds, etc?

Observations as follows in the next post.

[hal]

Observed issues with the history of Megalos as pertains to its over-reliance upon magic and the primary reason why Caithness, lacking such a reliance upon magic, was able to defeat the legion(s) sent against it.

1) GURPS BANESTORM rewrites a certain amount of information that had originally appeared within the first two editions of GURPS FANTASY. However, the history regarding the defeat of Megalos, and the continued defeat of Megalan forces does not make sense in light of the spells that were published for use with GURPS as of GURPS FANTASY 1st edition (where magic was first introduced for use with GURPS) and for GURPS MAGIC. GURPS GRIMOIRE was published AFTER (well after in fact) GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition was published, so the only spells available for use with GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition, were those contained in GURPS MAGIC 1st and 2nd edition.

2) GURPS FANTASY (either edition) never fully introduced population figures for either of the nations involved (ie Caithness nor Megalos). What GURPS FANTASY did do however, was describe the ratio of magery levels at a time when Magery 0 did not exist, and also at a time when the origional rules of GURPS did not allow for Magery to be "improvable" (outside of Great Wish and acts of the Divinities).

So what precisely is my problem with the History of Caithness and/or Megalos overall?

First, lets look at the Demographics of magery as presented in GURPS FANTASY first edition. Page 15 under Wizards and Society, informs the reader that out of 100 people, one will have magery of any kind. Of 500 people, one will be a professional mage. Of 1,000 people, one will be of magery 2, while out of 10,000 people, one will be of magery 3.

This is particularly important primarily because of the magery requirements for most of the battle worthy spells from GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, or the subsequent spells given in GURPS MAGIC used in GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition.

Lets use some of the material from GURPS BANESTORM to do the calculations when it comes to the magical aptitude of the general population. The only reason we're using the population figures from GURPS BANESTORM is because such figures were not available for use with GURPS FANTASY 1st or 2nd edition - but they illustrate the problems involved.

For a population of 16 million as of 2005 (which would have been somewhat higher than the population of Megalos in 1986), the breakdown of mageborn using the original rules from Fantasy 1st edition are:

Magery of any kind: 160,000
Professional Mage: 32,000 (ie one in 500)
Professional mage with magery 2: 16,000 (1 in 1,000)
Professional mage with magery 3: 1,600 (1 in 10,000)

If no more than about 1% of the civilian population enter the military without adverse effects to the civilian sector itself, we have the following numbers of mageborn in the Military:

Magery 1: 320
Magery 2: 160
Magery 3: 16

That is strictly based on magery values, not upon whether or not a person with Magery 3 wants to join the military or not. But this discussion, it begins to show us what we can expect overall.

If Megalos has 10 legions on a permanent basis, we're looking at about 32 magery 1 mages, 16 magery 2 mages, and 1 magery 3 mages per legion.

What kinds of tactical doctrines would be involved with the use of magic and the ancient art of war? More on this in my next post...

[hal]

Generally speaking, effective javelin range for skirmishers was about 20 yards (60+ feet). Lightly armored skirmishers would have the advantage of being able to outrun more heavily armored troops in formation, and generally were decimated by cavalry troops. Archers on the other hand, could expect to harrass enemy line formations from a much further distance out. Historically, one should not expect the missile troops (ie archers) to be more than about 10% of the effective force. So what does this mean in the general overall scheme of things in a battle where GURPS style magic "exists".

First, where does one need to employ one's mages for their spells to be effective regarding actual combat?

Area effect spells, aside from the fact are costly in fatigue suffer from range issues. In oder to cast a 3 hex radius spell, one counts the distance from the closest edge of the area effect spell to the caster of the spell. Thus, if a caster were to cast the spell so its center of effect was 10 yards away, he'd suffer the following penalties to his chances of casting the spell:

Range to center of effect - 10 yards. Less the number of hexes in the radius of the spell (3) for a modified -7 to spell casting. A mage with a skill of 12 trying to cast that area of effect 3 spell, will need to roll a 5 or less to succeed. Statistically, that is a 1 in 20 chance of success. On the battle field, this is not sufficient to impact on a unit that is a skirmisher throwing javelins or using slings from 20 yards out. Clearly, such a spell has to be held agianst the enemy for a time later on when the two battle lines are closer together.

So what other issues stem from the magic rules of GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, or GURPS MAGIC for use with 3e?

Men who are in a battle line, about to engage their enemy, are likely to charge against their foes at as fast a speed as they can manage once their entire unit gets to within range of the enemy unit. Lightly armored troops, with a movement of 5, modified to 3 due to encumberance, can move 3 yards per second on the first second, and 4 yards per second on any turn thereafter. After three seconds of charging, our "men" will have moved a total of 11 yards. In a mana normal region, we might expect that the tactical doctrine of employing mages in a unit - requires that they be in the second or third rank from the front. At a spacing of about 1.5 yards per rank initially, that places our mages roughly 5 yards from the front line of contact. If in the second rank, they're about 3 yards from the front line of impact, and if in the front, they have a fully exposed view of the charging line coming up against them.

What happens next?

Remember, we're not talking about the spells contained within GURPS GRIMOIRE, nor are we talking about spells listed in GURPS MAGIC for 4e - we're talking about those spells then available to the authors of GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, when writing the history of how Caithness defeated Megalan legions.

More...

[hal]

Possible Area spells that might be employed by mages, as of GURPS FANTASY 1st edition:

Earthquake, Rain, Create Fire, Shape Fire, Phantom Flame, Essential Flame, Fog, Silence, Wall of Silence, Darkness, Simple Illusion, Complex Illusion, Perfect Illusion, Independence (for illusions), Sense Life, Sense Foes, Watchdog, Weather Dome, Force Dome, Utter Dome, Sterilize (did 3d6 damage in 1st edition), Fear, Mass Daze, Mass Sleep, Emotion Control, Beast summoning (although not listed as area spell, it can summon all of a specific type of animal within 10 miles radius - definitely an area type spell!), Dispell Magic, Drain Mana, and last but not least, Restore Mana.

These are the area spells listed in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition that have any possible application for combat (I left out a few area spells, but were mostly incapable of any real battle field application - probably no more than about 5 or 6 area spells were excluded).

Most of those spells have energy costs in excess of 1 fatigue per hex radius. Sterilize for example, costs 3 for a 1 hex radius, and an additional 3 per extra radius desired. For a mage to "sterilize" a combat area with this spell with a radius of 3, the energy cost would be 9 (or 8 if skill 15+). While 3d6 damage to every single person within a radius 3 hex "pattern" of effect can potentially affect 19 people, in reality, it will catch maybe half that as most troops (unless heavy infantry in full armor) would have a spacing of at least 1.5 yards (or more) between them and the next person - more if they charged as a mass prior to the spell going off.

Now, look up the casting times for these spells, and our mage on the front line needs to "lead" his targets by the time he estimates it will take them to hit the front ranks.

With the high costs of many of the area spells given in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, many of the mages will become essentially one shot cannons. Factor into the equation, that many of the area spells such as Fear, etc - have saving rolls that the enemy gets once the spell is successfully cast (if successfully cast that is).

[hal]

Ok, up until now, we've been glossing over the tactical doctrines of the army of Megalos. Page 58 of GURPS FANTASY 1st edition tells us that Megalos keeps a standing army of varying quality depending upon whether led by professional soldiers or spoiled younger sons (presumably of nobility?). Most powerful lords keep standing armies as well. Although this doesn't describe the armies of Megalos as being "legion" style troops, there is a section that lists

..one of the most feared LEGIONS, (emphasis added), "True Dragons," is comprised entirely of Lizard Men.

Of course, this doesn't neccessarily mean that the legions of Megalos are Romanesque in nature - as any unit can be called a legion despite its organization. It isn't until GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition, that we learn the Megalan Legions are primarily infantry in nature, and are supported by the "elite heavy cavalry of the Megalan knighthood".

So, lets look at the actual set up of a hypothetical Infanty unit with a Megalan Wizard operating as a battle mage.

Close order infanty (heavy infantry) tend to have a spacing that is relatively tight. In GURPS, such a line of infantry would be adjacent to each other at 1 yard intervals. Other infantry on the other hand, would have a spacing for loose order on an approximate 1.5 to 2 yard spacing - giving the unit a frontage that is twice that of a close order infantry unit. Skirmishers on the other hand, are even less organized in rank and files to take advantage of their greater mobility and permit them freedom to use their missile weapons (javelins and slings) to good effect. Generally, optimal range for skirmishers is about 20 to 30 yards when firing at massed infantry.

So how does one see a unit of infantry lined up for battle? Each "rank" is a line of men, while each file is a row of men. 8 men to a file tends to be the standard, although 6 is not uncommon if the unit's frontage has been expanded or if there are less than paper strength units (ie it should have 80 men, but it has only 66). The front row if it is to cast javelin against an enemy, needs about 10 feet between themselves and the rank behind them so that their weapons do not foul with those behind them as they cast javelins. It takes a lot of discipline for the front rank to run, cast missile, slow down and form a solid rank while the next rank is running forward and loosing their volley, while the third rank is starting to run, etc. Think of an inchworm like effect - where the troops close ranks to form a tighter unit.

Now, where is it we will find one of the fifty one mages employed by the legions? Will he be in the second rank of the legion's soldiers, or will the mages all be armored like soldiers and in the front ranks? Will the legions employ more than 51 mageborn in their legions, pulling out twice the normal manpower from the private sector? 200? Therein lies a question of organization and perhaps of need.

[hal]

So now we're approaching the issues of how to employ mageborn within the armies of Megalos. Each mage by neccessity, must be a specialist within the legion's rank and file. By neccesity, I'm talking about the quirk that each spell takes at least 200 hours to train the mage in, and that many of the useful spells require requisite spells to have been learned before the desired spell can be taught. Mages who study to become healers aren't likely to also know spells useful for combat. Mages who study spells useful for building quick ditches and earthen ramparts are unlikely to have studied spells on instilling magical fear (mind control) in other victims. Mages who are useful for casting logistical support type spells, are unlikely to be risked in line of battle where it is better (and cheaper) to lose a mundane whose only skills are those of being a soldier.

For those who are interested, and have the inclination - a simulation of how a battle might unfold can be tested in a microcosm if you will. Grab a hex map and get a group of figures together to simulate both sides of a battle. If you can get around 40 to 80 figures, that might work reasonably well. One way to set this up is to use 40 figures plus another 40 pennies or cardboard squares or what have you. When two units engage each other in combat, the men attempt to retain formation as best is possible (although that never works out perfectly during battle). So for purposes of the simulation, set up the first side's men such that they occupy a row of 10 hexes with 1 hex empty between them. Then set up the second row such that they too have one hex of space between members of their rank, but also have one empty hex in front of them between their rank and the first rank. Do the same for as many as up to 8 ranks (using figures at the front ranks, and pennies/cardboard square in the back ranks). At a range of 40 yards, the two sides are facing off from each other. (Both will be legionaire type units for purposes of illustration). Rank's 1 and 2 of the side that advances towards its enemy (which will contain the Mage or two within the ranks) will need to use a step and aim manuever for two turns, before loosing their javelins towards their enemy on the third turn of aim. Range should be about 20 yards at the time the javelins are let loose. The Front two ranks should be loosing both of the javelins they are holding before they engage with the front of the enemy. If the enemy has arranged its front rank in close order (ie every hex is full), then the front two ranks of the advancing unit will also begin to close ranks so that rank 1 and 2 will become one continous line. In order to cast a javelin, the thrower must have the front hex open and the rear hex open or they cannot fire off their javelin (those in front or back will foul up the attack). Thus, a unit that keeps two hexes between each rank can loose javelins upon their enemy at the same time, or it can close together in preparation for the melee. Your choice ;)

Once the two lines are in contact with each other, third rank should maintain an empty hex of space between themselves and the fighting front. This gives the guy in front room to dodge back if needed, or perhaps be shoved back by the enemy frontage, or even give the front guy room to retreat from the front and retire to the rear as the third rank member takes his place. Thus, there should generally always be an unwounded, relatively fresh fighter on the front at all times.

Decide what spells the single mage will know, and what their general skills will be. It is advised that the mage be built upon 100 points if using GURPS 4e, or on 75 points if using GURPS 3e. Decide how much "equipment cash" the army is willing to grant the warrior mage (be reasonable here) and bear in mind that this is equipment that if lost, represents a major blow to the Emperor as he has to replace the lost equipment.

When designing the mage, keep in mind the requisite chain itself. If the mage is a young man aged 21, and has been studying magic since he was 14, the mage in question should not know spells with a requisite chain of 12 - as he's only had 7 years of training! It is perhaps best to design the character as if he were 14, then train the student to where they learn 4 spells semester 1, and four spells semester 2, and keep on picking spells that the mage can learn based on what he has already learned.

Then try out the battle using tactics such as shoves with the shield, defensive attacks, or if using GURPS 3e, use attacks once every few turns while using all out defense. This simulates the fact that most men were concerned enough to try and keep their wounds to a minimum.

In short? Experiment with the rules that GURPS has for combat, as well as the conditions of a battlefield where for example, there might be 3 ranks of men blocking your view in front. Would a third rank individual be able to see that a mage is about to cast a spell when there are 2 fighting ranks in front of him blocking his view?

One thing you might experiment with is the idea that of a rank of 10 men, the two middle most men will be taking normal attacks while everyone else will be all out defending. This way, if the front two begin to grind through their foes, they can try to break through the line and ruin the unit's cohesion.

In short - see what kinds of battlefield tactics begin to emerge Try this with the following level of skills for troops:

Green troops: Skill 9 for weapons and 10 for shield.
Normal troops: Skill 12 for both weapons and shield
Well trained troops: skill 14 in both shields and weapons.

Then try different spell choices for the mages and different tactical roles. For example? If the wounded keep retreating to teh back of the unit as they are wounded, what is there to keep a mage from casting Minor healing on the various lightly wounded combatants? If the back rank warriors are always given 4 healing potions as part of their standard issue, as the wounded retire to the back, they can be given a healing potion. Or, as per the Healing potion rules, a tired mage who is also unwounded, may drink a healing potion to recover 2d6 fatigue.

[Anthony]

Using early GURPS Magic, the most effective simple option for a battle mage is create fire followed by shape fire. You now have a ball of fire you can roll about the battlefield, disrupting enemy tactics and causing damage, and there's no special range limit on how far you can control the shaped fire once it's been shaped. To handle fatigue, you either have a wand of Lend ST (plus people backing you) or alchemical potions; it's not that hard to maintain a 5 hex sphere of flame rolling about the battle field.

Your other option, most useful if you have a downslope, is stench. This has a base cost of 1 and is actually pretty deadly. It's probably not very effective against a magically equipped military (an item that can cast purify air is cheap), but it will be perfectly useful against Caithness.

On a longer time scale, if you don't have hostile observers (not an option during battle, obviously), you can use ceremonial magic and then bind it with a Delay spell. This is useful for creating quite substantial magical traps.

Of course, none of these are really the best use for mages; direct damage isn't really their forte. Big strengths are communications, recon, and combat engineering.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by hal

Magery of any kind: 160,000
Professional Mage: 32,000 (ie one in 500)
Professional mage with magery 2: 16,000 (1 in 1,000)
Professional mage with magery 3: 1,600 (1 in 10,000)

If no more than about 1% of the civilian population enter the military without adverse effects to the civilian sector itself, we have the following numbers of mageborn in the Military:

Magery 1: 320
Magery 2: 160
Magery 3: 16

Your numbers are very dubious. 1%? In wartime more like a majority, and to heck with whether that has adverse effects to the civilian sector. Even in peacetime a disproportionate number of mageborn are going to be attached to nobility, or permanently assigned to legions because they'll be in great demand and the nobles and the emperor are the ones with the deep pockets to win the bidding war.

[raven_walker]

Hal, what exactly is your goal here? (I'm not being snide - I'm genuinely curious where you're going with this...) Okay, Fantasy 1st edition has a lot of holes... So...?

[hal]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Your numbers are very dubious. 1%? In wartime more like a majority, and to heck with whether that has adverse effects to the civilian sector. Even in peacetime a disproportionate number of mageborn are going to be attached to nobility, or permanently assigned to legions because they'll be in great demand and the nobles and the emperor are the ones with the deep pockets to win the bidding war.

:evil grin:

You make your own arguement against yourself. Assuming that like the mageborn, roughly 2% of the 16 million population are of the upper crust of society (ie the Nobles and very rich merchants), you will find that even if you break the numbers of nobles down to an average of 1 family averaging five people (as was the case in medieval times), that works out to roughly 64,000 noble families. Contrast this with the number of mageborn available who are "professional mages". By my count, there are all of roughly 50,000 professional mages for the 16 million Megalans. This means then, that by sheer numbers, there aren't enough mageborn around to fill the demand of the numerous houses of nobility.