small polities for Yrth

[LoneWolf23k]

Personally, I have a mild dislike to this whole "Mages run a Conspiracy to keep the world at Medieval levels of Technology to preserve their Superiority" concept, primarily because I can't imagine that large a disparate group ever getting their act together that well.

I would prefer different approaches: a Tech-Priest like group that encourages a "mystical" view of technology, leading people to think of it as a form of magic that they can control; making the rules of physics on Yrth hostile to technology, making anything more advanced then TL4 prone to fail explosively; making technology a beacon to Gremlins...

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Now, as for Megalan legions- they will be far from home, with either no magic or unreliable/very expensive magic to use, and fighting off orc and reptile man night raids. Their supply lines will be long and vulnerable. The city may have excellent natural or manmade defenses [will need such, because of the possibility of orc attacks]. Now, throw in a small corps of disciplined riflemen [backed by the city militia] and some well placed cannon...and you've got the makings of a major Megalan debacle.

To say the least. The Megalan's would have to march through Caithness, (which they've never been able to do before) or though the Great Forest (even less likely).

No, with Caithness and it's civil war, and a few days journey through uncharted no-mana barrens, between the Engineers and Megalos, the Engineers need fear nothing from Megalos.

[Astromancer]

Have you thought of ISLAND KINGDOMS! Reread Gulliver's Travels now!

Other than Arraterre, Ytarria's shipping and navies are at mid-TL3. Islands futher than a few days sail are effectively immune to Ytarrian navies for the same reason that 12th century Morrocco couldn't have invaded 12th century England.

Try this idea. There's an island roughly the size of the state of Maine a few hundred miles east of Ytarria. It's inhabitted mainly by Halflings who live in a TL5 (think 1730-50) society. The Island is low mana, but Alchemy is very well developed. These folks have Alchemetically powered flying ships. (If you've got a copy of Space:1889 use the Martian Kites; they look supercool!). They trade with Ytarria and other lands, but they don't tell anyone where their home is!

[benz72]

Engineers with a good workshop and a few modern ideas don't even need to use gunpowder to make melee-army defeating weapons. Defend the city with steam cannon (a big steel tube with a projectile shved down the muzzle and the 'breach' connected to a high pressure boiler via a fast acting valve). Hell, high school kids make air compressor powered versions of these things in an afternoon. Surely it is the 'fling lots of metal at the advancing army' bit that is important to the engineers, not the 'hey, lets find a use for all this extra sulfur and salt-peter'.

As for a legion laying seige in a desert without magical support.... not so much. Sun Tsu knows all about supply lines and what it takes to keep an army in the field... He's not going to bet on that endeavor succeeding.

The 'islands out beyond easy shipping' is a neat idea, but I question what would happen to airships attempting to land on the mainland. If mages don't like tech, or others having power... I don't see that going well for the halflings.

[combatmedic]

LoneWolf23k-

I know what you mean. The hyper-efficient and all-knowing Conspiracy can be a bit over the top. If it is nearly 100% successful in supressing new technologies, it begins to strain my suspension of disbelief. That's why I postulated that some of Megalos' rivals might sometimes give a little clandestine aid desert city. Even if everyone is officially working towards the same goal, there are always factions with their own agendas and interests.


In the past, I've considered many of the same alternate solutions- including the gremlins. I now find that I actually like the anti-tech conspiracy, if it is modified a wee bit, to be less all-powerful.


I may decide that gremlins are a weapon in the antitech arsenal of the mages. They are conjured [or constructed?] saboteurs. Being highly magical creatures, they perish very quickly in NMZs, so the desert-city is safe from them. UE in magic rich lands are not so protected!

Originally Posted by Astromancer

To say the least. The Megalan's would have to march through Caithness, (which they've never been able to do before) or though the Great Forest (even less likely).

No, with Caithness and it's civil war, and a few days journey through uncharted no-mana barrens, between the Engineers and Megalos, the Engineers need fear nothing from Megalos.

Yep, that makes sense.

Originally Posted by benz72

Engineers with a good workshop and a few modern ideas don't even need to use gunpowder to make melee-army defeating weapons. Defend the city with steam cannon (a big steel tube with a projectile shved down the muzzle and the 'breach' connected to a high pressure boiler via a fast acting valve). Hell, high school kids make air compressor powered versions of these things in an afternoon. Surely it is the 'fling lots of metal at the advancing army' bit that is important to the engineers, not the 'hey, lets find a use for all this extra sulfur and salt-peter'.

As for a legion laying seige in a desert without magical support.... not so much. Sun Tsu knows all about supply lines and what it takes to keep an army in the field... He's not going to bet on that endeavor succeeding.

Sure, why not have steam cannon and blackpowder guns? It's not a mutually exclusive deal- they can have both. Any high tech will cheese off the mages, steamtech just as much as gunpowder. I like black powder weapons, and will include them. I like steamtech, and will include that , too. Also, maybe the city has a handful of hot air balloons. Aerial observation in a NMZ where fly spells and dragons are out...useful, I should think.

[ArmoredSaint]

I've never understood why some people are captivated by the fantasy of injecting modern technology into Yrth, thereby ruining an excellent medieval-esque fantasy setting. Why can't we just leave it alone? Isn't it fine as it is? I like knights in armour, and swords, bows, and lances. I'd rather not see Yrth's medieval warfare spoiled by the inclusion of firearms, whether they use gunpowder or not. Plenty of other setting have guns.

[LoneWolf23k]

Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint

I've never understood why some people are captivated by the fantasy of injecting modern technology into Yrth, thereby ruining an excellent medieval-esque fantasy setting. Why can't we just leave it alone? Isn't it fine as it is? I like knights in armour, and swords, bows, and lances. I'd rather not see Yrth's medieval warfare spoiled by the inclusion of firearms, whether they use gunpowder or not. Plenty of other setting have guns.

What can I say... I love the steampunk elements I've seen in World of Warcraft and Warhammer Fantasy. Doesn't mean I don't like the low-tech warfare elements either.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint

I've never understood why some people are captivated by the fantasy of injecting modern technology into Yrth, thereby ruining an excellent medieval-esque fantasy setting. Why can't we just leave it alone? Isn't it fine as it is? I like knights in armour, and swords, bows, and lances. I'd rather not see Yrth's medieval warfare spoiled by the inclusion of firearms, whether they use gunpowder or not. Plenty of other setting have guns.

Well, gunpowder existed right alongside armored knights in Europe, for centuries. It is a TL 3 technology. Guns are medieval in origin! Gunpowder was used in the later round of Crusades, from 1250 or so. The Hundred Years War saw quite a lot of use of powder. It's a myth that guns just appeared around 1450 or so. They'd been around for a long time, even in Europe. It's just a question of how well developed they were, and how available.

Also, Yrth's 'medieval warfare' is almost certainly going to be more drastically altered by the widespread use of magic than one city using guns. If you want medieval warfare, you'd better nix the battle mages! Fireballs, flight spells, etc are going to seriously change the equation in places like Megalos and Al Wazif.

EDIT- That being said, if you dislike this idea, please ignore it. I'm not trying to tell you a super low tech 'canon purist' Yrth is wrong-bad-fun. I just prefer to mix things up a bit, and make it what I feel to be a more dynamic and believable setting.

[LoneWolf23k]

I think complaining about other people's intended changes to the setting is kinda pointless. It's GURPS. You're pretty much expected to do whatever you want with the sourcebooks, up to and including changing anything you want. In fact, the Designer's Notes for Banestorm have a whole lot of suggestions for making changes to the setting, including changing the general tech level to the Renaissance, or even Napoleonic levels.

Hmm... Napoleonic Banestorm. Could be fun.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k

I think complaining about other people's intended changes to the setting is kinda pointless. It's GURPS. You're pretty much expected to do whatever you want with the sourcebooks, up to and including changing anything you want. In fact, the Designer's Notes for Banestorm have a whole lot of suggestions for making changes to the setting, including changing the general tech level to the Renaissance, or even Napoleonic levels.

Hmm... Napoleonic Banestorm. Could be fun.

Yeah. I'm not trying to start a major debate, just throwing out some fun ideas. The beauty of gaming worlds is that there's a different version at every gaming table. GMs and players make these worlds their own, tinkering with the, reinterpreting 'canon', and generally having a good time.