small polities for Yrth

[cylys_aea]

I agree with diogenes that it would create a domino effect which would set the course of your campaign to a raising TL.

That said, I think you can consider having an UE group show up in Caithness, supported by some lord over there (may be even the king himself). Caithness already has a problem with Megalos and has established armies which can re-unite under the Megalan threat ending the ongoing dispute.

There is the problem of a handfull of mages that live in limited normal mana areas of Caithness. UE guys may get rid of them, or alternatively they can be persuaded into cooperation.

In any case, this is an alternative to consider if you don't mind altering the setting.

[LoneWolf23k]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

I'll admit to a small bias here. I was born in a desert town. Availability of water REALLY restricts population. Any real big water supply here would have made the place something to have been fought over contstantly.

So, the water source should be relatively small or increased dramatically in recent years. The odds fall heavily towards 'small'.

Then there's the fact the city in the desert is SECRET/Hidden. This also tends to mean it's small in population. Big cities mean more food is needed etc.

Well, they could start off with a small oasis with an underground spring, and then expand upon it with more advanced irrigation technologies.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

EDIT- I really love your notion of using one of the ancient elf cities for this place!

This is a great idea. With a little care, you could even get a Stargate: Atlantis riff going, people settling into a 'City of Ancients' kind of thing, learning things about it, finding out it's not devoid of magic, etc. It makes a great plot point in the campaign to counter the over all 'TL 5' city against the Megalos Legions, lest things get a little boring. =)

[benz72]

perhaps the water is there, just not accessible to pre TL5 methods... it needs to be drilled for / pumped out etc. After all, this USED to be forrest, just because everything died out from a mana backlash doesn't mean it never rains... it could just be that all the rain souak into the sand too quickly and collects in underground aquifers whch become accessible with TL 5 engineering. Hell, if it used to be a major elven city, there used to be a good water supply for it anyway. if it just got interrupted instead of destroyed then you really don't have a problem after all.

[LoneWolf23k]

Back to the original topic question, I think it'd be relatively easy to add more small cities and independant realms to Yrth, simply by putting them in somewhat isolated spots, and making the big nations either unaware of their existance, or simply not caring about their presence much.

One such idea I had was for a "Sin City", a independant city with very weak laws and very corrupt authority, where crime and sin run rampant and decadance runs wild. A bit like Tredroy, but even more blatantly sinful...

[combatmedic]

Yes, water and food are big issues! I had thought perhaps the city would be located over a large aquifer. If it is an ancient elvish city, that makes sense- you build near where you can get fresh water in goodly quantities. TL 5 engineering could provided sophisticated irrigation [I gave some TL2 examples which were able to support relatively large populations in the desert, on Earth].

Now, we could certainly imagine a scenario in which Megalos, despite its self-imposed handicaps, prevails. Ah, but I choose to stack the deck somewhat in favor of the desert city. Why? Because I think it's more interesting if they manage to survive.

Now, it is true that the presence of such a city would have ramfications on the rest of Yrth- eastern Ytarria, at the least. That's fine with me, but I realize it will not work in some people's home campaigns.

One thing I like about my idea [and thanks for all the feedback, guys!] is that it allows for another answer to the ''why haven't they advanced in a thousand years'' question. The Luddite conspiracy may be strong, but it isn't exactly all powerful [at least on my version of Yrth ;) ]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Like much of Banestorm's GP issues, this thread will soon devolve into 'How much does the local GM want to suppress/allow gunpowder'.

I'm in the ''allow, but it isn't freely available and will get you into a lot of trouble in most places'' camp.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Yes, water and food are big issues! I had thought perhaps the city would be located over a large aquifer. If it is an ancient elvish city, that makes sense- you build near where you can get fresh water in goodly quantities. TL 5 engineering could provided sophisticated irrigation [I gave some TL2 examples which were able to support relatively large populations in the desert, on Earth].

Now, we could certainly imagine a scenario in which Megalos, despite its self-imposed handicaps, prevails. Ah, but I choose to stack the deck somewhat in favor of the desert city. Why? Because I think it's more interesting if they manage to survive.

Now, it is true that the presence of such a city would have ramfications on the rest of Yrth- eastern Ytarria, at the least. That's fine with me, but I realize it will not work in some people's home campaigns.

One thing I like about my idea [and thanks for all the feedback, guys!] is that it allows for another answer to the ''why haven't they advanced in a thousand years'' question. The Luddite conspiracy may be strong, but it isn't exactly all powerful [at least on my version of Yrth ;) ]




I'm in the ''allow, but it isn't freely available and will get you into a lot of trouble in most places'' camp.

Oh, and Diogenes brought up non humans with guns. I like the idea of orcs with gunpowder, but I'm sure the people of the city probably wouldn't! Dwarves would probably be fine with it in certain uses, yeah. Aren't the dwarves described as being sometimes ''soft on tech'' in the new Banestrorm book? I agree that typical elves wouldn't care for the stuff [lacks elegance].

[NorphTehDwarf]

What if this city is guided by pragmatists who are willing to work with the Underground Engineers but aren't personally UE themselves? Maybe like HWGuys who set up shop next to my dispenser and grab all the ammo while I'm trying to upgrade my sentries, the jerks. What I mean is that what if you allow a tech level of even late tl5 (steam power, lots of arc lamps, etc) but just kinda give the gunpowder a pass. Maybe all the higher-ups know of gunpowder and even use small amounts of serpentine in their mining efforts, but are aware of the world's hatred of the subject and so generally minimize its use.

If you have steam technology and maybe even basic assembly lines, you're going to be able to produce one hell of a lot of swords, spears, armor, and crossbows. It may not be at the scale of professional armorers' works (or maybe it will; I don't know this stuff too well), but it'll be almost guaranteed to be better than whatever the orcs or lizard people can manage.

Also: steam-powered siege engines! Because anyone can build a cannon, but it takes some da Vinci order crazy genius to make repeating trebuchets. With steam power you could even make those absurd things from that Prince Caspian movie believable. Ish.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by NorphTehDwarf

What if this city is guided by pragmatists who are willing to work with the Underground Engineers but aren't personally UE themselves? Maybe like HWGuys who set up shop next to my dispenser and grab all the ammo while I'm trying to upgrade my sentries, the jerks. What I mean is that what if you allow a tech level of even late tl5 (steam power, lots of arc lamps, etc) but just kinda give the gunpowder a pass. Maybe all the higher-ups know of gunpowder and even use small amounts of serpentine in their mining efforts, but are aware of the world's hatred of the subject and so generally minimize its use.

If you have steam technology and maybe even basic assembly lines, you're going to be able to produce one hell of a lot of swords, spears, armor, and crossbows. It may not be at the scale of professional armorers' works (or maybe it will; I don't know this stuff too well), but it'll be almost guaranteed to be better than whatever the orcs or lizard people can manage.



Also: steam-powered siege engines! Because anyone can build a cannon, but it takes some da Vinci order crazy genius to make repeating trebuchets. With steam power you could even make those absurd things from that Prince Caspian movie believable. Ish.

I was envisioning the government as a republic run by a mostly pragmatic set of people, yes. Inviting the UE to live among them was just common sense, because they cannot use magic in a NMZ- so tech becomes very valuable for survival.

I'm keeping guns in, though. It isn't just gunpowder, but all sorts of advanced technology and openly accessible outworld knowledge that the mages fear. Mass production, assembly lines, steam engines,etc are just as big a threat to the status quo as gunpowder. Worst of all would be the Devil's favorite tool : the printing press! The mages will still want to smash the city- and they will still be screwed by the NMZ. Tough luck, mages.

As far as other tech goes- the city is early TL5, with certain more advanced items showing up in limited quantities. Crazy spinning rockhurlers powered by steam- sure, why not? UEs might build all sorts of whacky stuff. Available resources will be the main limitation on this.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Yes, water and food are big issues! I had thought perhaps the city would be located over a large aquifer. If it is an ancient elvish city, that makes sense- you build near where you can get fresh water in goodly quantities. TL 5 engineering could provided sophisticated irrigation [I gave some TL2 examples which were able to support relatively large populations in the desert, on Earth].

Now, we could certainly imagine a scenario in which Megalos, despite its self-imposed handicaps, prevails. Ah, but I choose to stack the deck somewhat in favor of the desert city. Why? Because I think it's more interesting if they manage to survive.

Now, it is true that the presence of such a city would have ramfications on the rest of Yrth- eastern Ytarria, at the least. That's fine with me, but I realize it will not work in some people's home campaigns.

One thing I like about my idea [and thanks for all the feedback, guys!] is that it allows for another answer to the ''why haven't they advanced in a thousand years'' question. The Luddite conspiracy may be strong, but it isn't exactly all powerful [at least on my version of Yrth ;) ]




I'm in the ''allow, but it isn't freely available and will get you into a lot of trouble in most places'' camp.

The easiest way to survive a Megallan invasion is to have an escape route and a very well hidden Redoubt or three.

If they can turn off (and later turn back on) the water supply, The Imperials can't leave a large enough garrison there to maintain a forceful presence in the ruined city.

Taking it back is possible. It's also a longer term solution if they and the Empire come to an understanding. So long as the Engineers agree to keep gun use minimized and secret, they'll hold off attacking again.

The Ministry has a number of tech it fears, but none a dangerous as modern Earth Weaponry. Assure them on that issue and things could go better for them.