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Old 11-04-2008, 10:20 AM   #31
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Masters
If they were applied to human ethnicities, that'd be true enough. Applying them to different species who may in fact have substantial differences hardly seems vicious. Especially as these different species don't, for the most part, actually exist.

I presume you wouldn't call it "vicious" to give, say, centaurs Extra Legs and Enhanced Move (Running)?
He seemed to be demanding that all other species be exactly the same as humans. That would be how to get the result he seemed to be looking for.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:28 AM   #32
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

I'm just trying to wrap my head around a culture that is primitive/animalistic/amoral enough to rape, pillage and burn -- yet sustains a viable society, such as it is. Are orcs capable of crafts (i.e. blacksmith, masonry, etc.). What about tactics and strategy? Or are they just a raging horde of near-beasts?
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:33 AM   #33
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C.
I'm just trying to wrap my head around a culture that is primitive/animalistic/amoral enough to rape, pillage and burn -- yet sustains a viable society, such as it is. Are orcs capable of crafts (i.e. blacksmith, masonry, etc.). What about tactics and strategy? Or are they just a raging horde of near-beasts?
Um, you are familiar with the mongols, right?

In response to your questions about crafting, I'm away from my books, but I'm pretty sure that was covered in their racial description in Banestorm.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:06 AM   #34
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C.
I'm just trying to wrap my head around a culture that is primitive/animalistic/amoral enough to rape, pillage and burn -- yet sustains a viable society, such as it is. Are orcs capable of crafts (i.e. blacksmith, masonry, etc.). What about tactics and strategy? Or are they just a raging horde of near-beasts?
Of course they're capable of crafts, and raping, pillaging and burning describes what most real life TL 4- armies do after every sack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C.
It doesn't seem to be relevant, yo. Templates and traits are mutable, so instead of having a discussion about templates (which we decide), I was having a discussion on the principles surrounding the decision to choose said template traits.
So what, exactly, is the problem with a species, say, having a higher drive in the direction of dominance behaviour than humans do?

Last edited by David Johnston2; 11-04-2008 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:28 AM   #35
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

RE: "This is just Jungle Jim crap!"

Indians and Africans and Chinese are people. Real people, often with deep cultures and complex philosophies as worthy of respect as European philosophies. Orcs are not real people. They are subhuman monsters that really do eat babies and kick puppies.

Did you watch Aliens and think "gosh, these poor little guys are just misunderstood! They just want to protect their mommy, have a little bit of chow, and give those human softies a hug and a kiss!" No? Why not? Because they're ALIENS! They're ravening, chitin-covered, sharp-on-all-six-ends monsters that eat babies and kick puppies. They exist to fill the niche of monster, that constant, throbbing fear in the back of our mind that a predator is going to leap out of the jungle and rip our throats out.

Orcs are monsters. They are the constant threat of mindless, pointless barbaric invasion: the rape of our women, the looting of our homes, the burning of our houses, the starvation and enslavement of our children, the erasing of our history and legacy. Humanizing them would diminish their role as monster (in the words of another poster "Make them people in rubber suits"), and for what? A new and interesting culture to explore? We have dozens of them already in Ytarria. A cool and misunderstood race of non-humans? Got loads of them too: Ogres, Reptile men, Giants and Hobgoblins. You're emptying a niche to try to stuff orcs into niches that are already filled.

As for "How can mindless savages form a functional society?" Even animals can form functional packs, even the nastiest and most predatory of animals. Why wouldn't orcs have AT LEAST that much functionality? If you mean "how can mindless savages form a deep and rich culture," well they haven't. Nobody qoutes orcish philosophers or discusses the high points or orcish art. You can change that, but again, I don't see the point. If you want players to discover the hidden secrets of a fascinating culture they had assumed was evil, you have plenty of human cultures for that, and if you need something inhuman that others have assumed was evil, you have the above mentioned races for that.

Last edited by Mailanka; 11-04-2008 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C.
I'm just trying to wrap my head around a culture that is primitive/animalistic/amoral enough to rape, pillage and burn -- yet sustains a viable society, such as it is. Are orcs capable of crafts (i.e. blacksmith, masonry, etc.). What about tactics and strategy? Or are they just a raging horde of near-beasts?

It could be a matter of basic racism. "They are not like us. Therefore, they are less than us." Compare the average orc to the average human, or elf. Not as bright, but certainly tougher. Out where the orcs live, tough counts. In a bare-knuckle brawl, with all things being equal, I'd bet on the orc.

As for their society, I think we're looking at a bad cycle perpetuating itself. The system, while violent, works to keep the society alive and vital. At the same time it, it breeds for traits that we would see as psychologically unhealthy. A sort of biker gang government. Somebody mentioned the Mongols already, yes?
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:56 AM   #37
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C.
I'm just trying to wrap my head around a culture that is primitive/animalistic/amoral enough to rape, pillage and burn -- yet sustains a viable society, such as it is. Are orcs capable of crafts (i.e. blacksmith, masonry, etc.). What about tactics and strategy? Or are they just a raging horde of near-beasts?
Have you actually read GURPS Banestorm?
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:34 AM   #38
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Masters
Have you actually read GURPS Banestorm?
Uhm, yeah Phil, I have. And well done, might I add.

When I say I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept -- it's not because I think it's implausible or anything, it's because I'm actually trying to understand what that culture would be like. I'm not being sarcastic. I actually don't have a clear picture.

I'm trying to picture what their family structure is, if any? What would the orc children look like and how would they behave? Etc. Someone mentioned the mongols... but somehow I get the feeling that orcish children might be brought up differently -- more brutally.

Here's a question: what would PCs find if they encountered an orcish settlement? Not a war party, mind you -- but an actual settlement with female orcs and children. Would the children possess any sort of innocence or child-like nature that humans often find in their own spawn? Or are orc children completely devoid of anything resembling child-like nature? Are they just bloodthirsty little animals?

Thanks,

Phil
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:19 PM   #39
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C.
Uhm, yeah Phil, I have. And well done, might I add.

When I say I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept -- it's not because I think it's implausible or anything, it's because I'm actually trying to understand what that culture would be like. I'm not being sarcastic. I actually don't have a clear picture.

I'm trying to picture what their family structure is, if any? What would the orc children look like and how would they behave? Etc. Someone mentioned the mongols... but somehow I get the feeling that orcish children might be brought up differently -- more brutally.

Here's a question: what would PCs find if they encountered an orcish settlement? Not a war party, mind you -- but an actual settlement with female orcs and children. Would the children possess any sort of innocence or child-like nature that humans often find in their own spawn? Or are orc children completely devoid of anything resembling child-like nature? Are they just bloodthirsty little animals?

Thanks,

Phil
They'd be very child-like. What's more child-like than being a bully and saying "Mine! Mine!"?

But seriously, the answers are in the book: "Orcs breed like locusts...From the day they are born they are in fierce competition with other orcs, especially their own siblings for advantage and survival...Orcs do cooperate [for] short term advantage...Those who can cow others into obedience can do whatever they like for as long as the victims put up with it."

In short they're intelligent but they have what biologists and GURPS Space calls an "r" reproductive strategy by comparison with humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurps Space
They have large litters of offspring and put minimal investment into raising the young. If they survive, good; if not there are always more. They also tend to mature quickly and die young
However, "bloodthirsty" would be overstating it. They'd be more like neglected badly-behaved human children than the Bad Seed. They don't have racial Bloodlust. They're just Bullies. So they tussle with their litter-mates over food and toys and grovel or run whenever someone older and bigger takes notice of them. And on the virtuous side of things, at least they're rather less likely than humans to hold a grudge.
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:20 PM   #40
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Default Re: Orcs of Ytarria

I would assume that the majority of orc pups die before growing up, with only the strongest ones reaching maturity. And even among humans, the "innocence of a child" concept is hardly universal. They'd likely be playfull, but just take a look at the playground and see that "innocent" and "playfull" don't neceserrily go hand in hand.
But really, how the "family-units" and children dynamics works depend entirely on what kind of breeding strategy orcs have, and being another species, they might have an totaly other approach perfectly suited their society and enviroment.
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