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Old 09-07-2017, 07:29 PM   #41
Irish Wolf
 
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Default Re: my new campaign ideas

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For vampires, the obvious hint seems to be that beings who are "unnatural"—for example, people with big boosts to their Physical stats—become thaumivores (a really misformed word; it ought to be thaumatophage, or perhaps virivore, "eater of vis"), needing to consume Quintessence or start devouring their own Health levels. Taking blood from other humans could be a specialized source of Quintessence, with each Health level granting one Quintessence. This would imply that vampires are either mages who've pushed their own bodies outside the natural limits, or legendary creatures that can only survive in the physical world by preying on mundanes. I can also see an analogy to the way that Marauders export their own Paradox to the people around them, so maybe vampirism is a vice that Marauders fall into.
Your interpretation of the Kindred is supportable - they feed on something called "vitae" from human blood, and find animals less satisfactory because of the much lower degree of vitae. Said vitae is also burned to accomplish their semi-mystical feats, including the mere act of rising in the evening. (That's why older Kindred tend to nap for years, even decades, at a time - the older you are the more vitae you need just to rise.)

That maps neatly, in my opinion, with your view of Quintessence above.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:20 PM   #42
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A relativistic view of the Nephandi is that the universe needs to be destroyed in order to be rebuilt because of the imbalance caused by the Weaver. It is like the thing in Promethea where she realizes that the thing trying to destroy the world is herself.
Isn't the Weaver primarily a Werewolf thing? I really don't know Werewolf at all well; it didn't have the attraction for me of Mage or Wraith. I kind of have the impression that the source of static reality in Mage isn't some primordial spirit, but the activities of the Technocracy.

But I'm also not sure that this solves the problem. If you say that the Nephandi are there to destroy the universe because the Weaver has put it out of balance, that seems to be making the Weaver, or the Technocracy, the objectively evil element. And then you still don't seem to have true relativism, because you still have objective evil, don't you?
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:22 PM   #43
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Your interpretation of the Kindred is supportable - they feed on something called "vitae" from human blood, and find animals less satisfactory because of the much lower degree of vitae. Said vitae is also burned to accomplish their semi-mystical feats, including the mere act of rising in the evening. (That's why older Kindred tend to nap for years, even decades, at a time - the older you are the more vitae you need just to rise.)

That maps neatly, in my opinion, with your view of Quintessence above.
Well, sorta, though I'm not worried about exactly replicating the way things work in Vampire. It doesn't bother me to suppose that there are no Kindred in my particular World of Darkness, or that vampirism is something different, or several different things.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:32 PM   #44
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Isn't the Weaver primarily a Werewolf thing? I really don't know Werewolf at all well; it didn't have the attraction for me of Mage or Wraith. I kind of have the impression that the source of static reality in Mage isn't some primordial spirit, but the activities of the Technocracy.

But I'm also not sure that this solves the problem. If you say that the Nephandi are there to destroy the universe because the Weaver has put it out of balance, that seems to be making the Weaver, or the Technocracy, the objectively evil element. And then you still don't seem to have true relativism, because you still have objective evil, don't you?
The Weaver's POV is that the Wyrm was a threat to reality and needed to be imprisoned. The Technocracy thinks that a rational worldview is superior, for what should be obvious reasons, but essentially amounts to logical positivism.

Order is stasis. Rebirth is destruction. Freedom is chaos. It all depends on your point of view.

The thing is that the Nephandi still want to destroy the universe, which most people, including the traditions and the conventions aren't going to see as a good thing. But the other side of that is a view that maintaining or modifying a sick universe rather than letting it be reborn is misguided.

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Old 09-07-2017, 11:14 PM   #45
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The thing is that the Nephandi still want to destroy the universe, which most people, including the traditions and the conventions aren't going to see as a good thing. But the other side of that is a view that maintaining or modifying a sick universe rather than letting it be reborn is misguided.
I kind of got the impression that the Nephandi would want to destroy the cosmos and put nothing in its place.
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Old 09-07-2017, 11:44 PM   #46
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I kind of got the impression that the Nephandi would want to destroy the cosmos and put nothing in its place.
In which case then ending suffering is a good; it is ahimsa. But I see the nature of the WoD as being fundamentally cyclic, so I think a new universe would emerge in its place. At any rate what matters for relativistism is that the Nephandi believe it is a good.
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Old 09-08-2017, 12:19 AM   #47
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In which case then ending suffering is a good; it is ahimsa. But I see the nature of the WoD as being fundamentally cyclic, so I think a new universe would emerge in its place. At any rate what matters for relativistism is that the Nephandi believe it is a good.
I'll stipulate that from a strict relativist standpoint they could be so defined. But I'm looking at Mage 2nd, p. 54, and it says they "pursue the corruption of the Universe for its own sake," that those they serve are "entities of pure and unfathomable evil," "not merely evil—they are corruption incarnate," and that "all factions, even the Marauders, openly hate an obvious Nephandus." That doesn't easily support a relativist standpoint.

And I don't readily see a way to fit the service of demonic masters or the emphasis on corruption into the pursuit of nirvana you refer to. It seems way too active.
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:48 PM   #48
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Keep in mind: all the different corebooks in the oWoD line were written with all the fluff being from that "type's" POV... the ones of the nWoD line I've read maintained that.

There is no singular objective view that's correct - sorting through the POVs is the GM's way of personalizing the game setting.

Oh, and the clanbooks/tradition-books/etc are even more POV.

Only the mechanics are treated as omniscient POV.
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:29 PM   #49
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Keep in mind: all the different corebooks in the oWoD line were written with all the fluff being from that "type's" POV... the ones of the nWoD line I've read maintained that.

There is no singular objective view that's correct - sorting through the POVs is the GM's way of personalizing the game setting.
Sure. But where we're told, for example, that some of the Traditions like other Traditions more or less, and that the Traditions oppose the Technocracy but tend to see something to admire in the Void Engineers, and that the Sons of Ether used to be Technocracy but were driven out, and so on—we're told that the Traditions, the Technocracy, and even the Marauders agree on despising the Nephandi and destroying them on sight. It's kind of like the way Glorantha has gods affiliated with different Runes, who get along more or less, and sometimes have old quarrels, we also see that all of the various Rune cults hate Chaos. That may be officially relativistic but it looks a lot like inherent evil, in both cases.

And the Nephandi kind of come across to me as comic book villains. I don't really see them as the adversaries I want to make a campaign interesting.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:14 AM   #50
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Sure. But where we're told, for example, that some of the Traditions like other Traditions more or less, and that the Traditions oppose the Technocracy but tend to see something to admire in the Void Engineers, and that the Sons of Ether used to be Technocracy but were driven out, and so on—we're told that the Traditions, the Technocracy, and even the Marauders agree on despising the Nephandi and destroying them on sight. It's kind of like the way Glorantha has gods affiliated with different Runes, who get along more or less, and sometimes have old quarrels, we also see that all of the various Rune cults hate Chaos. That may be officially relativistic but it looks a lot like inherent evil, in both cases.

And the Nephandi kind of come across to me as comic book villains. I don't really see them as the adversaries I want to make a campaign interesting.
Just remember - it's all heavily and wilfully biased except for the mechanics. Just tell your players the book's fluff was written by an ex-nephandi... with an axe to grind, and may not be accurate.
That is the intended way to use it. It's all POV, not setting truth.

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